What is wrong with Epic Material?

[PhantomNarrator]

Lol!

There was also the included "Epic setting", a planar city called "Union".

Which was... less than inspiring.

And the winner of the understatement of the year award goes to . . .

 

[frankthedm]

I disliked how the deity rules and the epic rules more or less ignored one another.

I will say that the Epic Monsters in the ELH are actually pretty flavorful (not counting a few...) and cool. Some are just big, cool campaign hooks waiting to happen.

But a fair amount seems rigged to Ignore HP and Whack Your Stats.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

But a fair amount seems rigged to Ignore HP and Whack Your Stats.

To be fair, that's by far the best PC tactic at high levels, too. Save or die/stat-targeting attacks are the staple of high-powered D&D, so it's only natural Epic monsters would use them as well. It creates a death spiral, making the first one to resolve a debuff more likely to resolve another later and eventually win.

Also, from a purely game design standpoint, it allows you to endanger fighter-types without pretty much guaranteeing you'll one-shot a spellcaster. Anything that takes off enough hit points to make a 25th level fighter sweat will almost certainly take a wizard or sorcerer from full hp to -10 in a single blow; while 25th level wizards and sorcerers do have plenty of ways around that, it's still not terribly fun to have a powerful character constantly at risk of being removed from play, especially considering how long high level or Epic combat takes.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The ELH tended to define a notion of 'Epic' that was, well... Lord Crunchy McMunchy in the land of the Pun-Puns.

I felt that the Epic material was really poorly concieved. All it did was attempt to 'turn the dial up to 11' (and I mean that in every sense that it was used in Spinal Tap).

What would have been great would have been rules, material and ideas to support epic adventuring - conquering cities, leading armies, forging kingdoms, storming Hell... but all it contained was bigger attack bonuses, more damage, bigger saves, bigger spells. It wasn't even inspiring with that, either.

Of course, that was much, much easier to do than create rules and material for kingdom-level, epoch-shaking stuff, which was probably why they went that way. That, and it was an extension ad absurdum of the 'back to the dungeon' ethic of 3e. It's funny that even before 1e there was an expectation that at a certain level the PCs would obtain a keep, clear land and move into a different *kind* of adventure - which used to be huge fun. 3e introduced the idea of basically bigger and badder dungeons all the way down as you continue to gain levels.

If I ever ran a campaign where PCs reached 20th level, I'd continue by using something like the original Forgotten Realms Epic rules. Basically, I'd only allow 20 levels in an class (and 10 levels in any prestige class), but multiclassing penalties disappear. Any additional classes taken will add to BAB, hp, Saves as per normal (and sensible Epic fighters won't be just stacking on Barbarian, but might be thinking about shoring up those weaker will saves in one way or another). The one thing that breaks from the basic rule is any 'add one caster level' prestige classes, which beyond 20th level add 1 extra slot above the current highest level slot, which can be used for metamagicked high level spells. e.g. a wizard 20/archmage 3 would have the normal 20th level wizard slots, plus 1 10th, 1 11th and 1 12th level slot (which might contain quickened disintegrate, empowered time stop and maximised meteor swarm, for instance).

... but I'd still be looking for good rules for Epic adventures. Maybe the Companions and Immortals basic sets have something useful there...?

Cheers

 

[Razz]

I think hong pretty much nailed it: there's really nothing EPIC you can't do by 20th level (There's nothing Epic you can't do by 5th level, either, but let's leave Pun-Pun out of this ).

A 20th level character can already do at least as much as any mythic hero. Fighters can slaughter whole armies single-handedly, clerics can bring people back from the dead with nary a scratch and without a physical body, wizards can change the nature of reality by pure personal power (albeit dangerously). Give some 20th level characters a place to stand (and a sufficiently heavy object to throw) and they'll not only move the world, they'll destroy it outright!

If you're explicitly out for the things Razz cited in the first post - and many of those are, indeed, extremely fun to play - any of the systems I cited would likely do them better than D&D's epic rules (or D&D's high level rules, for that matter).

That may be so about 20th-level characters. But you're still limited at what you can do. 9th-level spells can only do so much. You can't slice off the top of a mountain and make it float in the air with 9th-level spells. Only epic spells can do that.

I see Epic play as breaking beyond those limitations. Can't naturally use death attack on undead? An epic feat solves the problem. It's not something you'll want to give out as a feat below 20th-level...the prerequisites would be TOO HIGH. At least if you peg it as an epic feat, you can give it prerequisites only epic characters can achieve. Skills is another thing. They can get really high at 20th-level alone. Something has to tell you "Well, if you managed to get it this high, here's what you can do."

Epic magic items do need a fix. But epic PrC and taking classes beyond 20th with the RAW is fine as is. I don't see where the problem is with that.

Again, I believe an Epic Level Handbook should give you the options to "go beyond". Want to jump 100 feet in a single bound WITHOUT magic, but with pure skill? Get epic level. Want to juggle several weapons while attacking with them during battle? Get epic level. Want to naturally be the fastest creature to move in D&D? (without magic) Get epic level.

 

[Fieari]

Everyone who thinks the WotC epic rules are uninspiring and bland NEEDS to get The Immortal's Handbook. Just the descriptions alone are epic. Nearly every ability, nearly every feat, and certainly every monster is LOADED with potential, hooks, and sheer awesomeness. Using it, I just ran a simple hack and slash with nothing deeper than "go to point A, kill thing there, go to point B, kill thing there" and still managed to awe the players. They told me the felt like they were playing heroes in the midst of the Bible's book of revelations, amidst Armageddon.

WotC's ELH -is- uninspiring. Upper_Krust's IH is -very- inspiring.

 

[Shade]

I'm currently DMing a 25th-level campaign and playing in a 22nd-level campaign. Both started at 1st level.

We're still enjoying the game, but it's definitely got its quirks.

For starters, the death from massive damage rule has to go. Quickly.

If it weren't for the revivify spell, no one would ever gain a level.

As others have pointed out, no one is interested in investing in the epic spellcasting system because it is too pricey and too much of a hassle.

I've found the CRs to be just fine. The problem, as always, lies with humanoids with class levels not being on par with monsters of the same CR. Of course, this has been a problem since about level 1, so I don't fault the epic rules for that one.

I love me some ELH monsters in small doses. As Pants mentioned upthread, many are adventure hooks all in one. The xixecal is a prime example.

The paragon template is great, and a quick way to get a decent opponent from non-epic material. The pseudonatural template, not so much. Spell resistance 5 x HD is just insane. It would be much easier to just state "immune to magic".

Union is no Sigil, that's for sure.

The magic item pricing is indeed nutty. No one will put a +6 enhancement on their weapon when they can get another +5 worth of special properties for a fraction of the cost. Sure, you can't bypass DR/epic, but most of the time no one has the right stuff handy to bypass DR/silver, cold iron, or alignment-specific, so it's not that big a deal. Other items are ridiculously affordable, like the boots of swiftness, so everyone seeks a pair.

I really wish the ELH had included information on how items become artifacts (no, not a Craft Artifact feat, god forbid, just some decent flavor on what it takes for something to gain the minor or major artifact designator).

A handful of feats are great, but the rest are underwhelming (and most of those have been pilfered for non-epic books, anyhow). 99% of the feats in the PHBII trump the epic feats in power. Devastating Critical is one of the few "must haves" if the prereqs can be met.

Overall, epic's got some serious flaws, but I still prefer it to the alternative (having the campaign die at 20th level). We're still having fun, just having to work harder to get around the "bugs".

 

[Stalker0]

That may be so about 20th-level characters. But you're still limited at what you can do. 9th-level spells can only do so much. You can't slice off the top of a mountain and make it float in the air with 9th-level spells. Only epic spells can do that.

Sure you can, its call wish.

What I "wish" they would have done is introduce mechanics to let all classes spend xp to do truly awesome things. If levels still cap at 20....then you don't need the xp anymore. Now its about what to do with it. Wishing like crazy, letting a fighter spend xp to pick up a mundane sword and make it a +10 weapon in his hands, having a cleric not just commune but actually have his diety come down for a personal chat....etc.

 

[Crothian]

Everyone who thinks the WotC epic rules are uninspiring and bland NEEDS to get The Immortal's Handbook.

Is it out yet? I know the bestiary is, I have that PDF. But it is the only PDF RPGNow has for them.

 

[Slife]

I think hong pretty much nailed it: there's really nothing EPIC you can't do by 20th level (There's nothing Epic you can't do by 5th 1st level, either, but let's leave Pun-Pun out of this ).

Fixed it for you.


I would like it if someone just published something that expanded the normal ruleset into OMGEPIC territory.