What is wrong with race class limits?

[Sejs]

A lot of people have seemed to complain on the race class limits of the earlier editions. Why were they bad?

Because they pigeonhole demihumans into particular roles, and they keep you from exploring broader possibilities without venturing into house rules territory.

They make a hard rule out of what should have been a suggestion.

Would that kind of explanation for race class limits in the game and setting make them okay?

Eeh. A little. Mostly it'd feel like a tacked-on justification, to me at least.

Ultimately, race class limits were an outgrowth of the fiction that early D&D had its roots in. There were no examples of, say, a halfling from Podunkton Downs going off and living with the elves and in time learning magic, therefore halflings can never be wizards. Dwarves can never be wizards because, despite there being many cultural archtypes of dwarves as unparaleled magical craftsmen who knew the secrets of the earth, you could never have a dwarven wizard-as-runesmith because the classic image of a mage was all robes and pointy hats.

They were in many ways a self-imposed blindness. They kept players and DMs from venturing too far from the established norm, and it did so in a rather hamfisted manner.

 

[Aaron L]

That's the heart of the question. Are the class race limits just bad because they are bad or is it becasue they didn't m,ake sense with what was written in the game?

In that case it's yes on both counts. They are bad because they put an arbitrary and absolute end to your characters advancement and continuing career with the rest of the party, AND they are bad because they are contrary to the flavor and description of the race.


Two bads make a baddest. Racial level limits are the baddest rule in the whole damn town.

 

[Remathilis]

I disliked them because so many of them seemed like splitting hairs. A halfling can be a fighter/thief, but not a ranger? Or an elf could be a fighter/mage/thief but not a bard? And why did gnomes racially cut their own nose off by specializing ONLY in illusions at the cost of any other area of magic?

In our 2e games, this was one of the rules that gradually wore down. First, we upped the level limits. Then we did slow advancement beyond LL. Then we ignored it. Then we added a new class here or there to Each race to give more variety. Eventually, we got within moments away from dwarven necromancers vs. elven paladins anyway, so 3e broke down that barrier for us.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Eventually, we got within moments away from dwarven necromancers vs. elven paladins anyway, so 3e broke down that barrier for us.

"Third Edition Dungeons & Dragons: Breaking Down Racial Barriers."

 

[JVisgaitis]

Nothing at all. I never minded having restrictions. I think WotC made the game more appealing to some people and easier to get into by lifting those restrictions, but I have no problems with restricting classes by race. In fact I wanted to do this with Violet Dawn, but my editor convinced me otherwise.

 

[LogicsFate]

"Third Edition Dungeons & Dragons: Breaking Down Racial Barriers."

I like that.

Those rules also prevented an elf or dwarf getting overly epic levels. No youth potions, no way to grow young, and it felt like everything took soo long. How many levels could a human get before he kicked it? How many could an elf.
Then again, that doesn't mesh well will halfling and orcs. Several other races had one unlimited class right?
Also doesn't work with the fact that heroes don't die of old age. Unless some of that nasty aging magic is involved that stuff was horrible.

 

[Seeten]

I forgot to mention, that we only removed level limits from straight classes. If you multiclassed, we basically slowed advancement to 1/2 speed, so a 30th fighter was equal to 15/15 fighter/mage or 10/10/10 fighter/mage/thief, etc.

We did a lot of balance by ear, but level limit was never a balance check we used, seemed contrived, and not effective.

 

[Nyaricus]

I have no problem with race class level limits. If I only want gnomes to be beguilers, or tiefling warlocks, that's cool.

I find race class level limits a bit silly, though, unless there is a reason, and it's not just about making humans preferable. I mean sure, a half orc with an int penalty won't be as good a wizard as a gray elf, but the system takes care of that in other ways.

Thank you, Psion. That is exactly my feelings on this; that certain classes should be restricted to certain races - but that simply restricting class levels is silly, and almost impossible in 3.xe, what with PrCs and all the rest.

cheers,
--N

 

[frankthedm]

3. In the same light, it makes no sense. What does a character who hits his level limit experience? What is the mechanism, in-setting, preventing him from advancing?

His soul has grown all it can.

 

[Presto2112]

Hrmpf. I don't want to highjack this thread, but this reminds me a lot of my biggest problem with 3rd edition: Dwarven wizards.

Not because there are dwarven wizards at all... but the rules make them better than elven wizards and to me that would result in more dwarven wizards in the world than elven wizards.

Well thank god dwarves are better than elves at SOMETHING. Stupid Legolas. He even DRANK better than Gimli...