What is wrong with race class limits?

[Coplen]

These level caps just never made sense to myself and my friends.

Arrel

Word.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Having totally failed to find that damned link on Sean's site that talks about handling CRs for larger parties, I can at least say I stumbled upon this link by accident: Rant: Demihuman Level Limits Suck

I did a quick word find through five pages and didn't see Sean's name so I hope this adds to the discussion.

If not, well....Weeeee!

J. Grenemyer

Edit: found the link finally

 

[Geoffrey]

If I want to capture the feel of other sentient species being alien in their world view and only by exception entering into the world of men I'll play 1e or earlier. When looked at in terms of having a fundamentally different view of the world than humans, I find the class and level restrictions make much more sense.

Thank you for your post. The A/D&D products that (even moreso than OD&D or 1st edition AD&D) are the most humanocentric are the Historical References for 2nd edition AD&D:

HR1 Vikings Campaign Sourcebook
HR2 Charlemagne’s Paladins Campaign Sourcebook
HR3 Celts Campaign Sourcebook
HR4 A Mighty Fortress Campaign Sourcebook
HR5 The Glory of Rome Campaign Sourcebook
HR6 Age of Heroes Campaign Sourcebook
HR7 The Crusades Campaign Sourcebook

For the most part, these rule/setting books do not allow non-human PCs at all. There are one or two reluctant exceptions, but 99% of any player characters in an HR campaign would be human.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I never had a problem with level limits. Of course, I like the "humans have limitless potential" model, so that's probably one reason. Anyway, while I don't have a problem with level limits, I can see why others don't like them. Not a big deal to drop them or modify them.

 

[RFisher]

In 1e, a difference of 4 levels (below the average of main party) was all it took to start thinking about retirement, hobbit holes, fishing and opening an inn!

Oh. Thank you. I thought my experience of actually seeing players playing characters more than four levels below the rest of the party & being the most effective PC in 1e games meant that it could be done. Now I see that it can't.

(^_^)

I think racial class and level limits were a result of Gary being too liberal. Nevermind that in OD&D a dwarf (for example) can reach only 6th level as a fighter. The fact that a player could play a dwarf (or any other non-human) is actually lenient, and a concession that I do not make as Judge.

Back in my 1e days, I really agreed with this. Not that I thought that players didn't play demihumans as alien enough. (I probably wouldn't have even thought of that then.) Just that I found it hard to reconcile settings with elvish kingdoms & dwarvish kingdoms with me setting the adventure in a human kingdom & all the players choosing to play demihumans.

That, & that I usually wanted elves to be more like the legends I was reading & NPCs only. But suggesting that the PCs couldn't be demihumans was a sure route to an argument.

- Cleric and Druid: none. No matter what race you are, you're getting your spells from a god; clearly, no god is going to stand in the way of you as its Cleric becoming as proficient as you can given your skills, piety, and capability for earning ExP.

Of course, the 1e DMG said something along the lines of 1st & 2nd level clerical spells weren't granted by higher powers!

In my classic D&D world, demihumans lack souls. (Which for me means...) The have no gods. They have no impulse to worship gods. Gods don't seek to recruit them directly since they lack that important spiritual currency. Possibly without a soul they don't even have the capability to channel divine power in clerical fashion.

Which is just to say that, whatever the restriction, I'm sure all of us are creative enough to rationalize it.

I just have to ask why dwarves shouldn't be magic-users? Ancient Norse myth dwarves certainly used magic. The only reference to dwarves being some kind of antimagical race is, well, old D&D.

Assuming this is true, what's wrong with D&D having some ideas of its own (e.g. beholder) besides being influenced by myth/legend/literature?

 

[billd91]

Exactly - demihumans are actually monsters and playing one at all is a cool privilege.

That's hogwash. They're as much a core PC race as humans are. A DM should have a good rationale for disallowing them, not assume that allowing a PC to play one is a privilege.

 

[dcas]

Having totally failed to find that damned link on Sean's site that talks about handling CRs for larger parties, I can at least say I stumbled upon this link by accident: Rant: Demihuman Level Limits Suck

Wow, that was unconvincing. Or perhaps it is convincing to those who are already convinced that demi-human level limits "suck."

Anyhoo, for what it's worth I've taken level limits (but not class limits) out of my game. The caveat is that single-classed (but not multi-classed) demi-humans receive a 25% penalty to XP, while multi-classed (but not single-classed) humans receive a like penalty. Humans have depth; demi-humans have breadth. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Raven Crowking]

My campaign setting includes class limits for demi-humans......and also class limits for humans by type.

RC

 

[Quasqueton]

Wow, that was unconvincing. Or perhaps it is convincing to those who are already convinced that demi-human level limits "suck."

No, it was unconvincing to me, and I already think the level limits are bad game mechanics.

Anyhoo, for what it's worth I've taken level limits (but not class limits) out of my game. The caveat is that single-classed (but not multi-classed) demi-humans receive a 25% penalty to XP, while multi-classed (but not single-classed) humans receive a like penalty. Humans have depth; demi-humans have breadth. Hope that makes sense.

So there is no xp penalty for demihumans who multiclass? That incourages demihuman multiclassing.

Also, since the AD&D1 xp tables tend to double xp totals for level up (2000xp for 2nd level, 4000xp for 3rd level, 8000xp for 4th level, etc.), if you want the demihumans to be a level behind the human characters, the xp penalty should be 50%. A 25% penalty just makes the demihuman level up equal to a human maybe a game session or two behind the humans. So the demihumans are a level behind the humans only half the time -- sort of a leap-frog effect. I'm just offering this as advice, for consideration.

Quasqueton

 

[dcas]

A DM should have a good rationale for disallowing them, not assume that allowing a PC to play one is a privilege.

I think that the reasons cited by Geoffrey and others are good reasons. But I don't think it's the DM's job to come up with good reasons for his house rules. If the players don't like it, they can play in someone else's game or run a game themselves. Conversely, if the DM is having trouble attracting players to his game, maybe he needs to take a close look at his house rules.