D&D General What kind of class design do you prefer?

[Vaalingrade]

Wizards are out now too? What's next?

What TwoSix said: once the wizards are gone, we have plenty of design space and freedom to make better spellcasters without worrying about the wizard's 'everything' niche on top of better magic systems designed for the actual purpose of that given caster type.

It would be the dawn of a new Golden Age without hate or violence or traffic accidents.

 

[Undrave]

It was worse than that. It was well liked in th feedback. The problem were the wizard players nagging "where's mah SpellPoints!!" and the design team retiring sorcerer "because we can't work on the sorcerer when the default caster obviously needs more work"

Augh...

Which is why the answer is getting rid of wizards.

Once they're gone, the game is free of the whims and demands of wizard fans.

Yes! WOTC keeps bending over backward to please Wizard players, making the whole game worse every time. Wizard players don't care about the game being good, they just want to smugly go "Silly DM, I anticipated your clever trap and prepared the perfect spell for such an opportunity! This obstacle is now no more, thanks to my superior skills and vast intellect!" and then get orgasmic bliss from the DM going "Curses! Foiled again! Damn you Wizard!"

Once wizards are gone, then you can ADD specialized necromancers, warmages, abjurers, etc. Honestly, each of the 8 schools could support its own class with multiple subclasses.

Exactly! It's ridiculous to have the Diviner/Oracle be the same damn class as the Illusionist character. The guy with all the utility magic shouldn't be the same guy who can sling Fireball and other devastating combat spells! Fighter players keep getting told "you can't be good at both out-of-combat stuff and combat stuff, silly goose! You're good at FIGHTING so swing your sword and stop asking for non-combat stuff." by people playing characters who can TOTALLY be good at both! Wizards are too wide and they stunt the interesting stuff you could do by creating a new, robust, magic system.

 

[Lanefan]

Once wizards are gone, then you can ADD specialized necromancers, warmages, abjurers, etc. Honestly, each of the 8 schools could support its own class with multiple subclasses.

Aren't there already more than enough caster classes?

 

[cbwjm]

I'm one of those against removing the wizard, I think we should keep it. If you want to have different types of wizards, well we already have that in the subclasses. I wouldn't mind the subclasses having a bit more weight, but I feel like that for every class.

 

[Scribe]

I'm one of those against removing the wizard, I think we should keep it. If you want to have different types of wizards, well we already have that in the subclasses. I wouldn't mind the subclasses having a bit more weight, but I feel like that for every class.

I'm not against Wizard's in particular, but are people net positive on the current implementation of the subclasses?

I find it extremely underwhelming.

 

[TwoSix]

Aren't there already more than enough caster classes?

I thought that was the question the poll was answering?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Aren't there already more than enough caster classes?

Nope. Not enough martial classes either.

 

[cbwjm]

I'm not against Wizard's in particular, but are people net positive on the current implementation of the subclasses?

I find it extremely underwhelming.

Maybe not but I still much prefer subclasses over a numerous different classes. Maybe subclasses just need to pick up more of the weight of the class, throw in another level where additional subclass abilities are gained. Might just need a going over of the subclasses, 5e design seems to have changed a bit since the PHB first came out.

 

[steeldragons]

A good microcosm of this question is: how many different kinds of magic are there?

OO! OO! <raising hand> SIX! Arcane. Divine. Nature. Psychic. Eldritch/Forbidden, and "High Magic"/ Translevel.

When a wizard and a cleric both cast detect magic, are they doing fundamentally the same thing (the same essential gestures and words) with slight stylistic differences, to manipulate the same magical energies into roughly the same weaves, or are they doing two very different things: using two very different sets of materials to build different tools that happen to serve the same purpose?

The latter.

Mage [Wizard]: incantation, gesture, eyes glow. You see the auras of the magical things before you.
Cleric: invocation, mini-rite, eyes glow. Your deity has deemed fit to empower your sight with the ability of arcane magic. So, you see the auras of the magical things before you.
Druid: mini-rite, attunement to the pulse and flow of the natural energies of the world, eyes glow. You see the auras of things that do not adhere to the natural pulse and flow of energies of the world.
Psychic: concentration, concentration, eyes glow. You have attuned you mind to a frequency that is beyond the normal spectrum of human vision. You see the auras of items that fluctuate to a frequency that you know to be consistent with arcane (or divine or natural or psychic or unknown [eldritch]) magical energies.
"Warlock" [or whatever it becomes in later editions]: Your patron gave you this incantation and told you how to gesture. You do it. Your eyes glow. Your patron has shown you how to empower your sight with the ability of arcane magic. So, you see the auras of the magical things before you.

If the former, it doesn't make as much sense to split casters into discrete classes by where they learned. If the later, you need at least one class per type of magic present in the setting.

I would say martial classes should be about as broad as caster classes, which could mean either "just two" or half a dozen depending.

Mage/Wizard is to Swordmage/Spellsword (whatever Fighter-Magic-user split title you prefer) is to Fighter.
As Cleric is to Paladin is to Knight/Cavalier (non-magical but faith/ideal based).
As Druid is to Warden is to Ranger.
As Psychic is to Psi-warrior/"Jedi" is to Monk/Martial Adept.
As "Sorcerer" (something weird/unknown results in you having magic power) is to "Warlock" (something weird/but known is giving you magic power) is to Barbarian (something weird/unknown or known results in you having martial prowess other non-magical folks don't have).

 

[MichaelSomething]

This only works if all the options you can buy are well balanced against each other, which is really hard to do as a designer.

Otherwise you tend to get "you can play anything so long as it's a stealth archer" situations.

If I cared about balance, I go play 4th Edition!