Levistus's_Leviathan
5e Freelancer
No, I did read it, but Convergent Future (Chronurgist ability) will eventually make them fail a saving throw.
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D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?
- Thread starter Levistus's_Leviathan
- Start date
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
"I wish that all rubies everywhere were immediately and forever worthless," said the grinning druid upon discovering a magic lamp.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Don't hate the class, man, hate the spell. I've already said simulacrum is OP RAW unless the DM steps in to nerf it.
Anyway, since this is a competition in a bottle (so to say) the Wizard would only need to cast Wish once. So, if the 1/3 thing isn't really a big deal.
The conversation as far as martials goes is immaterial, especially with the simulacrums, as wizards have ways of avoiding martials easily.
A monk would not survive the simulacrum barrage because it would not get to act and the Evasion would not help against magic missiles and auto-failing the saves would still result in more than enough damage to kill the monk.
As the OP is sort of ruling "no simulacrums accept via Wish" in the competition, Wizards have a harder time against Sorcerers as has been pointed out, but still win versus martials easily. 100 rounds when you can't damage the Wizard at all will kill most martial builds easily. Half-casters might get lucky or have a trick or two that will help and might give them an occasional victory.
As for Portent, it is highly unlikely any other build wins Initiative. With 3d20 at the Diviner's disposal, there is also a good change the can keep on in reserve to make the opponent auto-fail a save. Depending on what the wizard does at that point, there is little most martials can do.
And any army any other caster can have, a Wizard could have as well probably, so I see no point in arguing that issue.
Asisreo
Patron Badass
Monks can escape most anything quite easily. An open monk would have sanctuary on him, meaning magic missile barrages become less likely to completely hit. But they are also less likely to get hit by something from an initial strike, giving them time for invisibility.
Astral Projection moves them in and out of banishments or anything that could lock down their position.
Shadow monks can cast darkness and teleport to the darkness they create.
4-elemonks can squeeze through anything that has openings with gaseous form.
Asisreo
Patron Badass
Even if they make the monk autofail a save once, the monk can reroll after. In fact, fighters can reroll a failed save.
Yeah, so eventually we'll be arguing which 1000+ army beats who's 1000+ army because everyone is assumed to have had an indefinite amount of time to get whatever they want without risking anything. Which will always rule in favor of spellcasters by virtue of the fact that a martial can't snag a magic item from a powerful spellcaster themselves, because we consider that outside the rules.
This is like playing in a casino where the odds were stacked against everyone else but the house wants to make it appear fair. Strap these spellcasters in a 30ft radius Coliseum and let's see who wins then? How about we randomly assort the spellcaster's spell list so they can't predict their enemies moves. Or we could require the participants to adapt to a changing environment.
Benjamin Olson
Hero
I think your math is off. With +6 from attunements, +2 from the cloak and ring of protection, and +6 from proficiency bonuses it's a minimum +14 to everything you are proficient in. Do, however, note that you can only take the resilient feat once. Still being able to get a no stat bonus +14 to Wisdom or Dex saves is nothing to sneeze at.
Also you get to add your intelligence bonus to your saves several times a day from Flash of Genius. We'll just call those your Legendary Resistances.
I still wouldn't be so confident taking them against a purpose built for dueling Wizard or Sorcerer, because they'll still widdle you down faster than you can heal yourself with save for half stuff (though Absorb Elements will help a lot in this department) and you can't really afford to spend actions self healing anyway. Once you are below 100 hit points it's Power Word Kill time, and you likely don't have that much more than 100 hit points.
Druids and Bards are also going to drop Heat Metal on Mr. Magic Items, and it's going to suck a lot.
ClaytonCross
Kinder reader Inflection wanted
I was not aware of the Chronurgist as it is a newer option. Convergent Future + feeblemind is basically an I win button vs non-melee classes unless the target has counterspell…. well. Ok then I see why wizards are winning. I am a little surprised Wizards allowed an ability that completely removes any chance of a save. I guess a Divination wizard has a chance at a similar effect with Portent depending on if they get a really low roll. Melee classes, including moon druids and paladins in this case, end up playing a game of keep away which they can't win versus an opponent with hold person, blink, misty step, and thunder step... Until the target gets low enough for a finger of death. In that case Artificer makes a good augment for second place but due to Convergent Future and maybe Portant I concede wizards can break most classes out the gate and there is nothing they can do about it if the wizard goes first in initiative. Of the classes with counter spell only the Bard and Warlock are the only ones with feeblemind to return the favor and for sure the same two subclasses have advantage on them. If sorcerers had feeblemind with meta magic heightened spell they could give wizards a sudden death run for there money but they don't and still all of these classes are Charisma based making intelligence saves while wizards are intelligent based with intelligence save proficiency which out weighs disadvantage (even if they take resilient intelligence, it is still their secondary stat at best). They could both be a Gnome so that is a net zero. Then you add to that they could use the same abilities to prevent from failing as they could causing the opponent to fail...
well crap... I would like to change my answer.
Benjamin Olson
Hero
I think the reason WotC was not so concerned about it was that the high level Big Bad is going to have legendary resistances and it's not a dueling game, it's a team adventuring game. Do note that it is written so that anyone who has an ability to add to a saving roll after failing it (Battle Magic Wizard, Divine Soul Sorcerer, I'm sure more that I'm not thinking of) can effectively auto defeat this ability. But yeah, it's extremely powerful, and in most situations fairly broken when combined with top tier spells, especially since you can do it multiple times and it seems OP just to be able to do it once.
Levistus's_Leviathan
5e Freelancer
In case anyone doesn't know these, Chronurgists can do the following:
Convergent Future
14th-level Chronurgy Magic feature
You can peer through possible futures and magically pull one of them into events around you, ensuring a particular outcome. When you or a creature you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction to ignore the die roll and decide whether the number rolled is the minimum needed to succeed or one less than that number (your choice).
When you use this feature, you gain one level of exhaustion. Only by finishing a long rest can you remove a level of exhaustion gained in this way.
and
Temporal Shunt
5th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 reaction, taken when a creature you can see makes an attack roll or starts to cast a spell
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 round
You target the triggering creature, which must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or vanish, being thrown to another point in time and causing the attack to miss or the spell to be wasted. At the start of its next turn, the target reappears where it was or in the closest unoccupied space. The target doesn’t remember you casting the spell or being affected by it.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 5th. All targets must be within 30 feet of each other.
Both of these can very nearly guarantee a win for a Chronurgist.
Convergent Future
14th-level Chronurgy Magic feature
You can peer through possible futures and magically pull one of them into events around you, ensuring a particular outcome. When you or a creature you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction to ignore the die roll and decide whether the number rolled is the minimum needed to succeed or one less than that number (your choice).
When you use this feature, you gain one level of exhaustion. Only by finishing a long rest can you remove a level of exhaustion gained in this way.
and
Temporal Shunt
5th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 reaction, taken when a creature you can see makes an attack roll or starts to cast a spell
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 round
You target the triggering creature, which must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or vanish, being thrown to another point in time and causing the attack to miss or the spell to be wasted. At the start of its next turn, the target reappears where it was or in the closest unoccupied space. The target doesn’t remember you casting the spell or being affected by it.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 5th. All targets must be within 30 feet of each other.
Both of these can very nearly guarantee a win for a Chronurgist.
ClaytonCross
Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Proficiency bonus is the same for all level 20s, my intent was +8 over that flat rate but I did not word it to clearly explain that. But yes +14 total.
For some reason I always think Resilient is like Elemental Adept, but you are correct. So Dex is likely the best choice.
Magic itoms and and armor doesn't have to be metal. In normal play I would agree heat metal Is and artificer's bane, however, under the OPs description knowing your opponent and preparing before hand, there is no reason the artificer has to have metal one them. That is one thing they could really anticipate and prepare for.
I agree with the rest of your post but I would also its mute once you consider Portent or Convergent Future (Chronurgist ability) with feeble mind. They can't fail, your save is nullified, and you don't have counter spell.... so your done on their first turn. Really only the moon druid has a chance but a hold monster that can't fail and bunch of ranged attacks gives the wizard a fair chance. Like you said, if the wizard gets a turn with the druid not in beast shape and less than 100 hp finger of death ends it. This can be arranged with fire shield (or similar) warcaster using the opportunity attack to drop the druid form or hold monster I think but its not easy.
