D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[R_J_K75]

I think further experience will likely alter your perceptions. The general consensus is that bards are very strong in 5e. They get full spellcasting, and Magical Secrets allows them cherry pick any spells they want from any class lists, from cantrips all the way up to 9th-level spells. Their Jack of All trades ability gives them a rare bonus to initiative. Plus, they are great at skills due to said Jack of All Trades, Expertise, and an extra class skill. They can do a lot of stuff themselves, and they have their party support capabilities through Bardic Inspiration and spells. For subclasses, a Lore Bard's Cutting Words feature is also considered really strong, and they get early access to Magical Secrets plus extra skills.

That said, what they do not come with out of the box is good damage output, whether at-will or limited resource. You can, however, opt-in to that via Magical Secrets. Valor Bard gets Extra Attack, but honestly (and sadly for the Valor Bard), just picking up green-flame blade or booming blade with Additional Magical Secrets allows Lore Bard to be at least as effective in melee without needing to split their stats three ways like a Valor Bard needs to (need both Dex and Str in addition to Charisma). And if you prefer ranged, just take eldritch blast for your attack. Either way, you could also take hex or hunter's mark if you wanted more melee damage.

Lore Bard might be the strongest overall bard subclass because the ability to grab any two spells of up to 3rd level when they are 6th level is huge for flexibility of the character during mid-levels.

Sounds like they are still pretty similar to earlier editions but the mechanics have changed to get the relatively same results. After you pointing it out and re-reading the Bard entry I have to admit that my initial opinion on the class has changed and I agree they do appear to be pretty powerful. I'd have to play one though to really see. I have only had one person play a Bard and she didn't last long, died at 2nd level, and I don't think she put enough thought in the character at creation to get the full potential out of the class. I think she concentrated too much on one aspect rather than spreading things out to be more versatile.

One thing that I think is missing and it may be buried in the rules somewhere and I just didn't see is a class ability that allows a Bard to charm, enthrall NPCs and the like without using magic. I guess the performance skill could be used to recreate this effect with an opposed ability/skill check.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I think the reason WotC was not so concerned about it was that the high level Big Bad is going to have legendary resistances and it's not a dueling game, it's a team adventuring game. Do note that it is written so that anyone who has an ability to add to a saving roll after failing it (Battle Magic Wizard, Divine Soul Sorcerer, I'm sure more that I'm not thinking of) can effectively auto defeat this ability. But yeah, it's extremely powerful, and in most situations fairly broken when combined with top tier spells, especially since you can do it multiple times and it seems OP just to be able to do it once.

War Domain Cleric (channel divinity 3 times per short or long rest)

• Channel Divinity: Guided Strike (yourself)
• Channel Divinity: War God's Blessing (your friend)

War Magic Wizard
- Arcane Deflection (infinite, but "When you use this feature, you can’t cast spells other than cantrips until the end of your next turn." )
Divine Soul Sorcerer
- Favored by the Gods (once per long rest)

So it appears the best counter to a Chronurgists is a War Wizard, though arguably a war wisard is not going to beat everyone else the way a Chronurgists. cane the winner is still a wizard so it does matter. If you can always boil down the fight to a wizard of some type winning its the same answer for the OP.

 

[ClaytonCross]

So no prep. That means no contingency, no simulacrum, no make armor, etc.

I don’t necessarily agree with taking away the wizards toys in the name of fairness but if we are then it only seems that will help the sorcerer.

also starting 30 ft away with no prebuff a seems a death sentence for any wizard vs a sorcerer.

I want to agree with you but wizards get the feeblemind spell and sorcerers don't. That means save or die for the sorcerer which automatically leans it to wizards. If even one sorcerer subclass had feeblemind as a spell option, or if your fighting level 14 and lower then yes the sorcerer is very dangerous. That is not however, the OPs setup and being able to attempt it twice once with the level 8 spell slot and once with the level 9 spell slot on top of having 2 subclasses that can make the save an automatic failure... means sorcerers lose. Yes there is counter spell but since they can't fail that means sorcerer needs to hold their level 8 and 9 spell slots for counter spell instead of fighting with them or they leave the fight open to giving the wizard to attempts to end the fight with one roll. These means they are still fighting with one hand tied behind their back.

 

[Hohige]

Feeblemind is heavily countered by Long Range fighting and subtle counterspell
The Sorcerer Just cast wish to duplicate Mind Blank 24h, every day.
Feeblemind is useless against mind blank
Ethrealness, action to reappear + Quicken a spell is I Win Button.
With umbral form to get total cover every turn, well. Good Lucky.
The Sorcerer can stay 24hrs every day on ethrealness with extend spell.

 

[Oofta]

I have to agree with some of the other posters. No magic items, but the wizard is allowed to precast anything they want*, have thousands of GPs in spell components, know exactly what they're going to be fighting and so on.

It's never been a goal of 5E to perfectly balance classes, certainly not for a single fight. You could change the parameters to favor whichever class you want winning this. Start with no equipment or components and the monk is probably going to win. Start with standard equipment after having gone through 5 hard fights without a rest and within 5 ft of each other and I think the fighter stands a good chance. Start with ... well who do you want to win?

So I stick with my original post. Batman wins.

*I rule simulacrum can make 1 and only 1 copy, but I'm not going to get into that argument. On the other hand, bringing in even that 1 copy would, IMHO be bringing in a magic item.

 

[Stefano Rinaldelli]

The real answer is "Batman". Because he has a contingency plan for everything. Doesn't matter that he's not in the fight, he still wins. Because Batman.

Nobody says Chuck Norris?

 

[Oofta]

Nobody says Chuck Norris?

The OP specified no magic items. Everyone knows Chuck is a magic item.

 

[NotAYakk]

Subtle counterspell means any spell cast within 60 feet of a sorcerer has to be assumed not to work, unless you can use a 9th level slot and force the sorcerer to use their 9th level first.

You cannot counter their counterspell, the sorcerer burns 1 metamagic to make it componentless, and componentless spells cannot be countered.

The sorcerer can either do the same for her own spells, or counterspell your counterspell, so their spells get through.

If you are more than 60' but less than 120', the sorcerer can distant counterspell; again, you cannot counter it, it is out of range.

So you have to be at least 125' away from a sorcerer to cast a spell on them successfully. Or, bait the sorcerer with a cantrip, then bonus action spell. Or bait with a bonus action spell, then cantrip. Or action surge (EK only).

Once at range, the sorcerer is free to kite. Distant Spell means they outrange the other caster for the most part.

Invisibility/truesight brings the fight back down to close range (at the cost of concentration), where the sorcerer again can counter at least your initial actions.

The Diviners 3d20 are highly useful. They can probably win initiative, and make one or two spells hit/miss. Maybe with some good counterspell bluffing they can get some high level slots through and win, while defending using their 3d20 making the sorcerers first offensive moves fail.

 

[Asisreo]

I'm hardly worried about Sanctuary since once the monk attacks, it is gone. But with 100 rounds and dozens of spells, infinite cantrip damage, etc. the Monk will probably fall. Sure, you can reroll a save, but invisibility is only 10 rounds per use, and Astral Projection leaves your body behind so that isn't a good idea.

I'm unsure what exactly gives them 100 rounds to act. If it's invulnerability, a monk's stunning strike can end it early by incapacitating them and breaking concentration via stun.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Were the actual dueling terms established yet? What distance, if any? What lighting or cover, if any? With different lighting or cover options, a hide with a bonus action character can wreck casters.

My personal choice is a Firbolg lore bard with Alert and Lucky. They have a 13 initiative bonus, can change the Portent roll forced on them by a diviner after the diviner can no longer change it and also subtract a d12 from the opponents initiative and add a d12 to their own initiative. Very high chance of going first.

No matter what starting range ( engaged, 30 feet, 120 feet, a mile, etc ) they can use a bonus action if needed to turn invisible and therefore make their first cast immune to counterspell. They get 8 spells from ANY lists to decimate opponents, along with the full bard list.

My personal first spell in these conditions would be Time Stop. This gives a minimum 2 turns and up to 5 to buff, maneuver, or whatever else you feel like to set up the win.