D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[DND_Reborn]

And when you use Distant Spell on a spell with a range of touch, whose description says "the creature you touch", it doesn't extend the range to 30 ft either. Because all it does is change the "Range" line, right?

(That really isn't how 5e works.)

No, because Distant spell on a touch spell has no reaction trigger condition. It is the reaction trigger that causes the issue for this combo.

You can still use Distant spell on Counterspell, increasing the Range to 120 ft., but the trigger for the reaction is separate and requires you be within 60 ft. of the other caster. This makes using Distant spell nearly useless with Counterspell, but there are fringe cases where it would still be useful to do.

An example would be:

A begins casting a spell.
B is within 60 feet, satisfying the reaction trigger and uses Distant Counterspell against A.
A had a Contingency for Misty Step that if an enemy caster tries to Counterspell him, he moves 30 feet away. His intent is that this will foil the Counterspell.
B smiles because he knows his range is 120 ft thanks to the Distant metamagic, and since A is only 90 ft. away, his spells is still countered.

And besides, Sorcerers still have their edge with Subtle spell.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Reaction spells require very specific parameters for when you can use them. Changing the range of a triggering circumstance is different than changing the range of a spell. The distinction is more obvious in the case of featherfall where the targets can be any characters falling within 60 feet (120 with metamagic) whether or not you see them but you must see one creature within 60 feet falling.

Here is a funny thing...

Imagine your party is on a bridge 100 feet away. Some foes are only 50 feet away from you, on the same bridge. The bridge collapses!! But none of your allies are close enough! Oh no! But wait, one of your enemies IS ALSO falling! That triggers your reaction if you want and with Distant Featherfall, you can save your allies!

HA-ZAA!!! Your allies float to the ground while your enemies fall to their death!

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Here is a funny thing...

Imagine your party is on a bridge 100 feet away. Some foes are only 50 feet away from you, on the same bridge. The bridge collapses!! But none of your allies are close enough! Oh no! But wait, one of your enemies IS ALSO falling! That triggers your reaction if you want and with Distant Featherfall, you can save your allies!

HA-ZAA!!! Your allies float to the ground while your enemies fall to their death!

Allies are broken.

 

[NotAYakk]

No, because Distant spell on a touch spell has no reaction trigger condition. It is the reaction trigger that causes the issue for this combo.

The body of the spell text is as much rules as the header.

So if changing a spell from touch to range doesn't make the spell work as a ranged spell, doing so with reaction spells doesn't either. And vice versa.

Shocking Grasp? You can't "try to touch" (rules text) some creature at 30' away. So even though it now has a 30' range with distant spell, that range is pretty useless. Just like counterspell.

 

[Asisreo]

Allies are broken.

The real superior classes are the friends we made along the way.

 

[FrogReaver]

The body of the spell text is as much rules as the header.

So if changing a spell from touch to range doesn't make the spell work as a ranged spell, doing so with reaction spells doesn't either. And vice versa.

Shocking Grasp? You can't "try to touch" (rules text) some creature at 30' away. So even though it now has a 30' range with distant spell, that range is pretty useless. Just like counterspell.

Fully agree.

Now answer why is it that these threads tend to bring with them the worst rules lawyering arguments anyone has ever heard?

 

[FrogReaver]

Distant Spell says:

"When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater. you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell. When you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend I sorcery point to make the range of the spell 30 feet."

What does a reasonable player/DM think that doubling the range of counterspell looks like in the game?

 

[Asisreo]

Distant Spell says:

"When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater. you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell. When you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend I sorcery point to make the range of the spell 30 feet."

What does a reasonable player/DM think that doubling the range of counterspell looks like in the game?

I understand the RAW of triggers, but I'd rule that distance counterspell would trigger from a spell 60ft away. I'm very much a stickler for RAW but even I wouldn't be able to tell them no to that and feel to be in good faith.

Though, I won't necessarily call out anyone that rules it as such, it certainly wouldn't be a pretty hill to stand on.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The body of the spell text is as much rules as the header.

So if changing a spell from touch to range doesn't make the spell work as a ranged spell, doing so with reaction spells doesn't either. And vice versa.

Shocking Grasp? You can't "try to touch" (rules text) some creature at 30' away. So even though it now has a 30' range with distant spell, that range is pretty useless. Just like counterspell.

You're mixing up the casting of the spell with a triggering event which allows you to cast a spell.

Distant Spell changes the range and the factors of casting the spell, not the requirements of a triggering event.

Think of it this way:

You can't apply Distant Spell to a spell until you cast it.

You can't cast Counterspell unless the triggering event takes place.

In order for the triggering event to happen, you must be within 60 feet of the creature that is casting a spell.

The order of events is

1. You see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell.
2. You use your reaction to cast Counterspell.
3. You apply Distant Spell to your Counterspell as you are casting it.
4. Your range is now 120 feet.

Distant Spell doesn't affect the trigger distance because you aren't casting a spell (the Counterspell) to apply it to and it doesn't affect the distance of the triggering event. If the creature casting the spell is 100 feet away, you can't use your reaction to cast Counterspell. If you can't cast it, you can't apply Distant Spell to it.

In the case of Shocking Grasp you are changing it's range when you cast it from Touch to 30 feet. Distant Spell allows you to make the Touch attack up to 30 feet. After all, it is still a melee spell attack, not a ranged spell attack. There is no problem.

 

[Asisreo]

You're mixing up the casting of the spell with a triggering event which allows you to cast a spell.

Distant Spell changes the range and the factors of casting the spell, not the requirements of a triggering event.

Think of it this way:

You can't apply Distant Spell to a spell until you cast it.
View attachment 122684

You can't cast Counterspell unless the triggering event takes place.
View attachment 122685
In order for the triggering event to happen, you must be within 60 feet of the creature that is casting a spell.

The order of events is

1. You see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell.
2. You use your reaction to cast Counterspell.
3. You apply Distant Spell to your Counterspell as you are casting it.
4. Your range is now 120 feet.

Distant Spell doesn't affect the trigger distance because you aren't casting a spell (the Counterspell) to apply it to and it doesn't affect the distance of the triggering event. If the creature casting the spell is 100 feet away, you can't use your reaction to cast Counterspell. If you can't cast it, you can't apply Distant Spell to it.

In the case of Shocking Grasp you are changing it's range when you cast it from Touch to 30 feet. Distant Spell allows you to make the Touch attack up to 30 feet. After all, it is still a melee spell attack, not a ranged spell attack. There is no problem.

Personally, I'm fully aware of the mechanics for why that wouldn't work.

But that would also mean Spare the Dying couldn't be distanced, because no matter how far the range, the spell itself requires touching them.