D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[NotAYakk]

Arcane Lock says, in the spell description, that you have to touch the closed door, etc. If distant spell only changes the range entry, then distant spell doesn't work on it. Which is ridiculous; metamagic rewrites the spell, including making the sensible changes to the rest of the spell for it to make sense.

Quicken Spell changes the casting time to 1 bonus action. If you cannot apply metamagic to change the requirements of a spell, then it is useless -- you still need to start casting it as an action? So if your action was gone, you couldn't start it? No: metamagic rewrites the spell before you start casting it.

To cast S or V spells, you cannot be bound or gagged. If you cannot apply metamagic to change the requirements to cast a spell, subtle spell doesn't work while bound or gagged. But that isn't sensible; metamagic rewrites the spell before you start casting it.

This isn't magic the gathering. 5e was not written like magic the gathering. Heck, the first iterations of MtG wasn't written like that, and I remember it; only after many iterations of competitive play did it get rewritten to work like that.

The 60 foot range, in plain English, clearly refers to the trigger range on the spell. Only if you where evaluating a MtG card, or some other phased board game, would you even consider those two 60 foot values to be different values. And 5e was written as a natural language game, not a MtG card game.

You can try playing it like a MtG card game, with careful phases like that, but it isn't very good for that purpose.

There are some situations where you are sort of forced to do that, because you get two contradictory common sense interpretation. This isn't one of them.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Personally, I'm fully aware of the mechanics for why that wouldn't work.

But that would also mean Spare the Dying couldn't be distanced, because no matter how far the range, the spell itself requires touching them.

Distant spell changes the ranges from Touch to 30 feet. Since it has a range expressed in feet due to the Distant Spell, touching the target is no longer required because "Touch" is no longer the range.

If that you are suggesting were the case, it would make features or parts of them (such as Circle of Mortality) null and void.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Arcane Lock says, in the spell description, that you have to touch the closed door, etc. If distant spell only changes the range entry, then distant spell doesn't work on it. Which is ridiculous; metamagic rewrites the spell, including making the sensible changes to the rest of the spell for it to make sense.

Quicken Spell changes the casting time to 1 bonus action. If you cannot apply metamagic to change the requirements of a spell, then it is useless -- you still need to start casting it as an action? So if your action was gone, you couldn't start it? No: metamagic rewrites the spell before you start casting it.

To cast S or V spells, you cannot be bound or gagged. If you cannot apply metamagic to change the requirements to cast a spell, subtle spell doesn't work while bound or gagged. But that isn't sensible; metamagic rewrites the spell before you start casting it.

This isn't magic the gathering. 5e was not written like magic the gathering. Heck, the first iterations of MtG wasn't written like that, and I remember it; only after many iterations of competitive play did it get rewritten to work like that.

The 60 foot range, in plain English, clearly refers to the trigger range on the spell. Only if you where evaluating a MtG card, or some other phased board game, would you even consider those two 60 foot values to be different values. And 5e was written as a natural language game, not a MtG card game.

You can try playing it like a MtG card game, with careful phases like that, but it isn't very good for that purpose.

There are some situations where you are sort of forced to do that, because you get two contradictory common sense interpretation. This isn't one of them.

ALL metagmagics (except Empower Spell) occur "When you cast a spell" (it literally is the first text for all of them, except Empower Spell as noted), not before you start casting it. It occurs simultaneously. Metamagic allows you change the spell as you cast it. There is no issue with that.

You cannot cast a spell with a triggering event before it is triggered. That is why you can't cast Shield on your turn. You haven't been hit by an attack nor targeted by Magic Missile. If you can't cast the spell, you can't apply the benefits of Distant Spell to it.

Distant Spell is still awesome even if it can't be used on a handful of spells that have a range. Sorcerer can still Subtle Spell Counterspell which is awesome in its own right. Given all the issues that arise from Counterspell in general, understanding this makes it more reasonable. I mean, I have read a lot on message boards about DMs and tables that simple remove Counterspell completely because it is too powerful, especially in such instances.

As a note, the fact the Empower Spell occurs when your roll damage is the very reason why it is the only metamagic that can be applied after another metamagic was applied during the casting of the spell.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Distant Spell says:

"When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater. you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell. When you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can spend I sorcery point to make the range of the spell 30 feet."

What does a reasonable player/DM think that doubling the range of counterspell looks like in the game?

Interestingly enough, you do not have to be interrupting the same spell you see being cast within 60 feet of you. An enemy (or ally) spellcaster starts something up and as a reaction you can counter any one spell being cast within 120 feet.

There is a similar case with the reaction based spell Featherfall where seeing one person fall lets you react with a multiperson casting, not necessarily even including the one you saw. You'll feel pretty bad ruling otherwise when most the party falls off the airship and the Wizard Featherfall caster can only see an enemy.

And no, I'm not usually that pedantic and rules lawyery. I make an exception though in PvP situations, which is what we are discussing. This, to me, is the time for rigid, anal-retentive RAW RAW RAW.

 

[FarBeyondC]

Arcane Lock says, in the spell description, that you have to touch the closed door, etc. If distant spell only changes the range entry, then distant spell doesn't work on it. Which is ridiculous; metamagic rewrites the spell, including making the sensible changes to the rest of the spell for it to make sense.

Changing the narrative description of a spell is a sensible change. Changing the triggering condition of a spell is not. I'm not the person who wrote

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell

instead of

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature casting a spell

 

[FrogReaver]

A reasonable person would conclude that if you double the range of a spell you will be able to cast it twice as far. The reading being advocated here for counterspell is that doubling the range of counterspell doesn't mean that you can cast it twice as far. That's quite an issue.

 

[FrogReaver]

You're mixing up the casting of the spell with a triggering event which allows you to cast a spell.

Distant Spell changes the range and the factors of casting the spell, not the requirements of a triggering event.

Think of it this way:

You can't apply Distant Spell to a spell until you cast it.
View attachment 122684

You can't cast Counterspell unless the triggering event takes place.
View attachment 122685
In order for the triggering event to happen, you must be within 60 feet of the creature that is casting a spell.

The order of events is

1. You see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell.
2. You use your reaction to cast Counterspell.
3. You apply Distant Spell to your Counterspell as you are casting it.
4. Your range is now 120 feet.

Distant Spell doesn't affect the trigger distance because you aren't casting a spell (the Counterspell) to apply it to and it doesn't affect the distance of the triggering event. If the creature casting the spell is 100 feet away, you can't use your reaction to cast Counterspell. If you can't cast it, you can't apply Distant Spell to it.

In the case of Shocking Grasp you are changing it's range when you cast it from Touch to 30 feet. Distant Spell allows you to make the Touch attack up to 30 feet. After all, it is still a melee spell attack, not a ranged spell attack. There is no problem.

Of course it affects the trigger. You wouldn't be able to cast it 120 ft (double the distance) if it didn't affect the trigger...

 

[FrogReaver]

Distant spell changes the ranges from Touch to 30 feet. Since it has a range expressed in feet due to the Distant Spell, touching the target is no longer required because "Touch" is no longer the range.

If that you are suggesting were the case, it would make features or parts of them (such as Circle of Mortality) null and void.

View attachment 122688

I think that counts as evidence of our position though? You're kind of damaging your own case here

 

[Benjamin Olson]

If you can distant spell Counterspell, then what is the point of giving the reaction a 60 foot limit in the first place? The range would then impose the same effective limit if it just read "reaction, which you take when you see a creature casting a spell".

A reasonable person would conclude that if you double the range of a spell you will be able to cast it twice as far. The reading being advocated here for counterspell is that doubling the range of counterspell doesn't mean that you can cast it twice as far. That's quite an issue.

Not all metamagic is effective or useful with all spells, even if it can technically be used with them. There is no particular issue with that. Counterspell is plenty powerful without extra range. At first blush it looks like it works with distant spell, but it doesn't, just as many spells don't. In this case because metamagic does not effect the underlying condition which is not the range of the spell just because it is also a range.

D&D magic rules are full of oddball edge cases and metamagic exponentially expands the number of those.

 

[FrogReaver]

If you can distant spell Counterspell, then what is the point of giving the reaction a 60 foot limit in the first place? The range would then impose the same effective limit if it just read "reaction, which you take when you see a creature casting a spell".

Redundancy is a thing. It's not difficult to see valid design reasoning behind listing the range in both the trigger and the range line.

Not all metamagic is effective or useful with all spells, even if it can technically be used with them. There is no particular issue with that. Counterspell is plenty powerful without extra range. At first blush it looks like it works with distant spell, but it doesn't, just as many spells don't. In this case because metamagic does not effect the underlying condition which is not the range of the spell just because it is also a range.

D&D magic rules are full of oddball edge cases and metamagic exponentially expands the number of those.

Still seems to me that a class feature that says it doubles the range of a spell should reasonably double the range you are able to cast a spell. But you keep saying it doens't do that for counterspell which is so odd.