D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[DND_Reborn]

Common sense always 100% wrong.

Radiant Soul isn't magic, It's extra radiant damage to a weapon.

Wizards have many long range spells? I don't think so.
The Sorcerer hits at 620ft, 2 miles lul.

Antimagic field is a joke. It's suicide spell.
Invulnerability? a simply distant dispell for 240 ft range put it down.

It's dream, It's a fact. The wizard is not a challenge.

In your dream world, radiant damage isn't magical even though the transformation that grants it is from divine energy. Antimagic field suppresses everything short of an artifact or deity-created one.

The sorcerer also has his simulacrum. But It's still better, just twin it.

You should wake up then, because you are dreaming. In your dream world, you have Sorcerers casting Simulacrum (which they don't get BTW, but Wizard's do ).

 

[Hohige]

In your dream world, radiant damage isn't magical even though the transformation that grants it is from divine energy. Antimagic field suppresses everything short of an artifact or deity-created one.



You should wake up then, because you are dreaming. In your dream world, you have Sorcerers casting Simulacrum (which they don't get BTW, but Wizard's do ).

Radiant Soul isn't a magical effect like Wild Shape. It's a feature as Divine Fury (Zealot Barbarian). Poor Wizard inside an Antimagic Field.
Wish duplicates Simulacrum that lasts forever.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Someone just write the algorithm to solve this once and for all. Run the simulation 1,000,000 times and then report back. No need for all this soft suppositioning. Give me DATA, man!!!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Radiant Soul isn't a magical effect like Wild Shape. It's a feature as Divine Fury (Zealot Barbarian). Poor Wizard inside an Antimagic Field.
Wish duplicates Simulacrum that lasts forever.

Radiant Soul is, literally, transforming you. How is that not magical??? But, whatever...

I suppose you just have to say that is your interpretation. Divine Fury would also be a magical effect in my book, as would Divine Smite. Whenever a weapon deals damage what isn't the weapon's type, that is either magic or a magical effect. For instance, the damage from Dread Ambusher would work fine. I honestly can't say how many people would agree with your interpretation, but I don't.

Sure, Wish would do it, but that just means the Sorcerer has to use his 9th level slot for a 7th level spell. Not very effective IMO compared to the Wizard which can have Simulacrum prepared (if a condition for the competition, that is).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I have to say monk. People forget that a level 20 monk has proficiency in all saves and get to reroll them in the off-chance they fail the first time. The invisibility keeps spellcasters from targeting you while also resisting most damage options if they end up landing. They also get evasion, which makes them even better against spellcasters.

Great points!

This is all going to depend on the factors that start the combat. For example, the OP stated no magic items. That immediately disadvantages all non-spellcasters, who tend to be able to leverage magic items (magic armor, magic weapons, etc.).

But the issue is that there tends to be too much variation at the higher levels. There are three things that I think many people are discounting:

A. "Standard" build. For example, initiative is probably going to matter a great deal. So are we going to assume that this is a relatively standard class build- which is to say, a Monk will have a 20 dexterity, and a Wizard probably won't?

B. Feats. No feats? Some feats?

C. Race. While it might not matter that much, at the margins (flight?) it certainly might.

Then you get into the same two issues that I see that will always plague these debates:

1. Any debate will get bogged down into issues of preparation. Classes that can prep the battlefield, or have time to get spells, buffs, etc. in place before the combat starts are different than classes that don't need it. Call this the "Wizard Issue."

2. The "specialist" issue. I can almost guarantee that if someone comes up with a specific build that they announce (A), someone else can come up with another, specialized build (B) that can defeat A, but that B will lost to yet another build (C), while C would lost to A, and so on. I doubt that there would be one, single build that can always and forevermore beat all other builds in all situations.

That said, great reminder on the Monk being a possibility. I think people sleep on how insanely powered the Monk is at high levels ... because no one plays a high level monk!

Now, if the OP said that the combatants would be transported, naked, to the arena, it would be the Monk in a landslide.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Someone just write the algorithm to solve this once and for all. Run the simulation 1,000,000 times and then report back. No need for all this soft suppositioning. Give me DATA, man!!!

If only it was that easy...

 

[Iry]

Removed for being wrong!

 

[FrogReaver]

Minor note. You cannot take a reaction until your first turn on combat. So the loser of initiative cannot counterspell that first spell.

I may very well be remembering wrong but I can't place that rule anywhere?

 

[FrogReaver]

Radiant Soul is, literally, transforming you. How is that not magical??? But, whatever...

I suppose you just have to say that is your interpretation. Divine Fury would also be a magical effect in my book, as would Divine Smite. Whenever a weapon deals damage what isn't the weapon's type, that is either magic or a magical effect. For instance, the damage from Dread Ambusher would work fine. I honestly can't say how many people would agree with your interpretation, but I don't.

Sure, Wish would do it, but that just means the Sorcerer has to use his 9th level slot for a 7th level spell. Not very effective IMO compared to the Wizard which can have Simulacrum prepared (if a condition for the competition, that is).

if you can regularly prep simulacrum then the sorcerer can keep it with wish as well... this he will have that 9th level slot.

how was that not obvious?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Great points!

This is all going to depend on the factors that start the combat. For example, the OP stated no magic items. That immediately disadvantages all non-spellcasters, who tend to be able to leverage magic items (magic armor, magic weapons, etc.).

But the issue is that there tends to be too much variation at the higher levels. There are three things that I think many people are discounting:

A. "Standard" build. For example, initiative is probably going to matter a great deal. So are we going to assume that this is a relatively standard class build- which is to say, a Monk will have a 20 dexterity, and a Wizard probably won't?

B. Feats. No feats? Some feats?

C. Race. While it might not matter that much, at the margins (flight?) it certainly might.

Then you get into the same two issues that I see that will always plague these debates:

1. Any debate will get bogged down into issues of preparation. Classes that can prep the battlefield, or have time to get spells, buffs, etc. in place before the combat starts are different than classes that don't need it. Call this the "Wizard Issue."

2. The "specialist" issue. I can almost guarantee that if someone comes up with a specific build that they announce (A), someone else can come up with another, specialized build (B) that can defeat A, but that B will lost to yet another build (C), while C would lost to A, and so on. I doubt that there would be one, single build that can always and forevermore beat all other builds in all situations.

That said, great reminder on the Monk being a possibility. I think people sleep on how insanely powered the Monk is at high levels ... because no one plays a high level monk!

Now, if the OP said that the combatants would be transported, naked, to the arena, it would be the Monk in a landslide.

20th level Monks are cool, but I would still (I'm sorry) have to go with Wizard.

Invulnerability and Magic Missiles (for lack of even trying to think of anything better) would give a Wizard 100 rounds of no damage and over 400 hp of force damage the monk can't avoid. And the monk isn't going to kill the Wizard unless it hits for a Quivering Palm and the Wizard fails the save and drops to 0 HP, but Contingency can take care of that rare event probably... It is certainly a possibility, but far from a landslide.