D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[EzekielRaiden]

Basically this, though I went with less than 1 (Cantrips! Unlimited long ranged firepower), 6 (fireball!) and 14. As a Lv 14, I could completely shut down the optimized 1/2 giant totem barbarian in our party in one round. He didnt have a chance, even if he hit first.

You get new spells at character level = (spell level*2 - 1) So fireball comes online at level 5 (5 = 3*2-1) and plane shift at level 13 (13=7*2-1), hence why I used those numbers. Even-numbered spellcaster levels (even for slower progressions, like Artificer and EK/AT) never provide new spell levels. The only exceptions to this rule are Paladin and Ranger, and that's only because they don't get spells at all until 2nd level purely to avoid front-loading; by the formal mathematical progression, they "should" get their spells at 1st level (as they gain new spell levels at spell level*4+1).

So, in theory, our responses are the same.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Less than 1, 5, 9

 

[jgsugden]

My 20th level party walked up to negotiate with an ancient blue dragon. The negotiations did not go well. The dragon threatened us. My fighter responded with 300 damage in attacks in one round as a surprise round (9 attacks). Then, the dragon attempted to retreat and my fighter stopped it with an OA that reduced it to zero speed. It breathed once - before my fighter finished it off with another round of attacks.

In terms of damage dealing to a single target, fighters are top of the food chain at most levels if you're efficient with them. That fighter had a Firebrand Maul (+2d6 fire), Belt of Storm Giant Strength (29 Strength), and a ring of spell storing in which he had a Spirit Shroud cast at 5th level. (4d6+19+2d8) ... done 8 or 9 times on rounds when he action surged and used GWM (which he pretty much always did). On top of that, he added an addition 5d12 from Battlemaster, which could be used to turn a miss into a hit, or to add to the damage. That can get me over 350 damage on many rounds.

How much damage can a wizard do reliably to a single target in a round?

 

[Mordhau]

Fighter: I do one thing in combat very very well.

Wizard: I do the same thing reasonably well, plus I do a lot of other things in combat too like take out hordes of minions and impose control. Oh and also outside combat I break the world.

Fighter: I climb better than you though!

Wizard: (After teleporting to the top of the mountain and having the Unseen Servant prepare a picnic spread while waiting for the Fighter. ) Ok. I'll grant that.

 

[Stormonu]

My 20th level party walked up to negotiate with an ancient blue dragon. The negotiations did not go well. The dragon threatened us. My fighter responded with 300 damage in attacks in one round as a surprise round (9 attacks). Then, the dragon attempted to retreat and my fighter stopped it with an OA that reduced it to zero speed. It breathed once - before my fighter finished it off with another round of attacks.

In terms of damage dealing to a single target, fighters are top of the food chain at most levels if you're efficient with them. That fighter had a Firebrand Maul (+2d6 fire), Belt of Storm Giant Strength (29 Strength), and a ring of spell storing in which he had a Spirit Shroud cast at 5th level. (4d6+19+2d8) ... done 8 or 9 times on rounds when he action surged and used GWM (which he pretty much always did). On top of that, he added an addition 5d12 from Battlemaster, which could be used to turn a miss into a hit, or to add to the damage. That can get me over 350 damage on many rounds.

How much damage can a wizard do reliably to a single target in a round?

Banishment. You don't get to fight, regardless how many hit points you have.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Fighter: I do one thing in combat very very well.

Wizard: I do the same thing reasonably well, plus I do a lot of other things in combat too like take out hordes of minions and impose control. Oh and also outside combat I break the world.

Fighter: I climb better than you though!

Wizard: (After teleporting to the top of the mountain and having the Unseen Servant prepare a picnic spread while waiting for the Fighter. ) Ok. I'll grant that.

The wizard then complains to WotC that the fighter's climbing ability breaks his verisimilitude.

 

[Voadam]

Banishment. You don't get to fight, regardless how many hit points you have.

Charisma save or inflict zero damage and buy up to a minute of them not being there. If the target is from another plane and the spell is maintained for a minute the target does not come back. Given the example was a dragon it is likely a native.

Very useful in different situations and in different ways but does not inflict hp damage or kill. Much more a shenanigans spell in opening up other options besides default hp attacks.

 

[Lanefan]

I know in past editions, the XP was different based on class. Some classes leveled quicker to make up for having less power. I thought modern design attempted to even that out? I don't think it will ever be totally equal, the game isn't set up with PVP ultimately in mind.

Maybe not, but even so a real quick way to eyeball in-party character balance is to think through, for each character in the party, how things would likely turn out if that character turned against the rest of the party under different situations.

In one game I play in, we're all quietly terrified of what would happen should our number-one Fighter ever turn on us as between her own abilities, her items and magic, and a few unique abilities she's picked up over time we simply wouldn't be able to stop her. The only survivors would be those wise and-or fast enough to flee before she got to them; and even then she has at-will flight meaning that if you're ground-bound she will catch you if she wants to.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Maybe not, but even so a real quick way to eyeball in-party character balance is to think through, for each character in the party, how things would likely turn out if that character turned against the rest of the party under different situations.

In one game I play in, we're all quietly terrified of what would happen should our number-one Fighter ever turn on us as between her own abilities, her items and magic, and a few unique abilities she's picked up over time we simply wouldn't be able to stop her. The only survivors would be those wise and-or fast enough to flee before she got to them; and even then she has at-will flight meaning that if you're ground-bound she will catch you if she wants to.

Out of curiosity, how scary would she be if:
(a) lacking all magical equipment (assume it was stolen, somehow neutralized, or had to be surrendered for a time and she went along with it)?
(b) unable to perform "magic," in the sense of no spells or spell-equivalent effects?
(c) stripped of supernatural boons/techniques/attributes etc. (e.g. no divine boons, no mystical effects from having drunk magic water, etc. even if those things only worked because she's a Fighter or her Fighter stats permitted her to survive them etc.)?
and
(d) all of the above together (e.g., JUST her Fighter stuff, nothing special/unique to her that she's acquired during her journey)?

For clarity, I ask because one of the major concerns for a lot of players is that those above things tend to only be given to a Fighter because the DM is bestowing special favors on the Fighter (that is, these special benefits only happen because the DM is using favoritism to counteract an existing power difference). I don't mean to disparage or diminish this particular character's (and player's) achievements. Rather, my goal is to shine light on things like how treasure tables were effectively a secret Fighter class feature in early D&D, significantly favoring equipment only they could use. That is, secret/invisible design choices that are easily overlooked or implemented poorly, but which were an intentional part of balancing the different archetypes in D&D and keeping them within a ballpark of one another.

 

[FrogReaver]

One thing of old that did help sometimes keep fighters and wizards in balance was that spell choices weren't just granted to wizards. You had to find your spells just like the fighter had to find his magic swords and shields. So a DM could hand a wizard a fireball spell scroll that he could try to copy into his spellbook while handing the fighter a +2 magic shortsword. Both found something really nice - both are happy with adventuring rewards.