D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[Lanefan]

Out of curiosity, how scary would she be if:
(a) lacking all magical equipment (assume it was stolen, somehow neutralized, or had to be surrendered for a time and she went along with it)?
(b) unable to perform "magic," in the sense of no spells or spell-equivalent effects?
(c) stripped of supernatural boons/techniques/attributes etc. (e.g. no divine boons, no mystical effects from having drunk magic water, etc. even if those things only worked because she's a Fighter or her Fighter stats permitted her to survive them etc.)?
and
(d) all of the above together (e.g., JUST her Fighter stuff, nothing special/unique to her that she's acquired during her journey)?

For clarity, I ask because one of the major concerns for a lot of players is that those above things tend to only be given to a Fighter because the DM is bestowing special favors on the Fighter (that is, these special benefits only happen because the DM is using favoritism to counteract an existing power difference). I don't mean to disparage or diminish this particular character's (and player's) achievements. Rather, my goal is to shine light on things like how treasure tables were effectively a secret Fighter class feature in early D&D, significantly favoring equipment only they could use. That is, secret/invisible design choices that are easily overlooked or implemented poorly, but which were an intentional part of balancing the different archetypes in D&D and keeping them within a ballpark of one another.

(a) would bring her down some, for sure.
(b) and (c) are essentially the same thing, stripping those away would bring her down even more, leading to (d).

Thing is, if you want to apply (d) to her then it's only fair you apply it to the rest of the party other than spells gained solely through class (i.e. no magic items or boons etc. for anyone, nor extra spells acquired along the way); and in this case she'd still be pretty scary.

As for whether she's got those things simply due to being a Fighter, I'd say no; it's more been due to an extended (as in ten+ year) run of pretty good (and, I think, honest) luck with dice.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

Considering that a 20th level fighter can only hit 4-5 people in a round and a 5th level wizard can torch everything a 20' radius, the fighter isn't very high level.

Considering the 20th level wizard has an AC that's probably 5 points lower, has probably around 60 HP less than the fighter and cannot bonus-action-heal (second wind), the wizard isn't very high level.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Considering the 20th level wizard has an AC that's probably 5 points lower, has probably around 60 HP less than the fighter and cannot bonus-action-heal (second wind), the wizard isn't very high level.

Easily dealt with with just a few spells. Mage armor gives AC of 13+Dex, meaning you'd need a negative modifier to be so poorly-off, and it lasts all day, so it's one 1st-level spell, a pittance for a even a 10th-level Wizard. They're likely to be much closer than 5 points, though. The best AC you can get without magic items is 21, and that's only if they hyper-specialize in defense at the expense of other things (sword-and-board + plate armor + Defense fighting style). A Wizard with mage armor and a mere +3 Dex mod--easily achieved by level 12, since Wizards only really value Int, Dex, and Con as stats--is exactly 5 points less than the best possible AC a Fighter can have without magic. And then for emergencies, shield can handily deal with other problems, which completely covers that gap for the price of another 1st-level spell. Plus, because shield is only for attacks that actually hit you and lasts the rest of the round, it's almost never wasted!

The HP gap would be more of a problem if the Wizard weren't so much better at playing keep-away than the Fighter could ever dream of being. Misty step, invisibility, and (especially) mirror image all dramatically mitigate that...and those are all 2nd level spells, which while not as much of a pittance as 1st level ones, are a pretty easy cost to swallow. And then fly and blink at 3rd level are even better, and vampiric touch can even make up for the HP problem in a pinch (though I wouldn't rely on it myself).

Throw mage armor, shield, misty step, mirror image, fly, and blink on a 13th-level Wizard. This isn't even half the spells you know of any of those categories, since you gain two spells at every Wizard level after 1st (and six at 1st level!) If you can learn some spells from scrolls or books, it would of course be useful, but far from necessary. Oh, and even with Arcane Recovery giving you an extra 5th level slot, you still have 2 extra spell levels' worth of refresh, so you can regain a 2nd level slot or two 1st level slots, for a total of four 2nd or six 1st level spells a day. This is not a Batman Wizard who can summon every spell imaginable from a quantum spellbook; this isn't even a particularly comprehensive approach, just a useful one--and you still have 12 other spells you can prepare each day (level 13 + Int mod of 5 = 18 prepared spells each day).

This approach even works great for several Wizard schools. Abjuration, bladesinging, chronurgy, conjuration, divination, and war magic are all excellent. Eocation, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation are all decent, albeit needing a bit more effort to make maximum use of. I think the ideal is probably Diviner or Abjurer, though Conjurer has the fun of teleporting a ridiculous amount of times, and Bladesinger/Warmage are best if actually intending to get into fisticuffs, since they mitigate the AC problem quite nicely. (Indeed, a Bladesinger can actually rival the AC-hyperfocused Fighter while in Bladesong; mage armor + Dex mod 3 + Int mod 5 = 13 + 3 + 5 = 21; with higher Dex, you can actually exceed the best non-magical AC a Fighter can achieve.)

So...yeah. You can do a hell of a lot to mitigate these issues, while still having 75% or more of your kit open for utility, power, shenanigans, or just goofing off. That's why I say a 13th-level Wizard is on a par with a 20th level Fighter. Are there things the Wizard might struggle to deal with still? Sure, we can construct situations like that. But overall, in general, the Wizard is in a better position, and with even a little bit of foreknowledge and a DM that isn't completely denying any opportunity to scribe more spells, they can be in an excellent position for nearly all situations. The Fighter, even at level 20, has absolutely nothing they can do to bridge that gap.

Wizards-in-the-generic can put a portion of their resources to being like Fighters, while still having the vast majority of their Wizard-ly stuff and not needing to take a "specifically becoming more like a Fighter" subclass (though, of course, they can still choose to). Fighters-in-the-generic? Not a chance. It takes actually becoming part-Wizard (EK), and even then, it's slim pickings.

 

[Seramus]

I always liked the idea of a full caster building themselves exactly like a martial, playing like a martial, and using their resources to enhance their martial abilities. Essentially seeing just how close they can get to martial output... while still being full casters.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

An easy way to balance fighters vs wizards would be limiting attunement slots differently.
Probably forcing wizards to have special focuses they need to attune to to cast lv 6 to 9 spells would bring them somewhat to the same level.
Maybe first focus to cast level 6 and 7 spells. Second one to cast level 8 and 9 spells.

 

[DND_Reborn]

An easy way to balance fighters vs wizards would be limiting attunement slots differently.
Probably forcing wizards to have special focuses they need to attune to to cast lv 6 to 9 spells would bring them somewhat to the same level.
Maybe first focus to cast level 6 and 7 spells. Second one to cast level 8 and 9 spells.

I've heard ideas like this before and always liked it.

 

[TwoSix]

Voted 2/8/13. A level 1 wizard will generally win a PVP 1v1 versus a level 1 fighter thanks to sleep, but the level 1 fighter is more useful overall.

8 is roughly a fudge, a wizard will generally hit max Int by 20, which with 4th level spells puts them on par/somewhat more useful than a 10th level fighter.

At 13, a wizard gets the big guns like simulacrum and forcecage, at that point the wizard can really start dictating encounters. The fighter is there to take hits and mop up.

 

[FrogReaver]

Considering the 20th level wizard has an AC that's probably 5 points lower, has probably around 60 HP less than the fighter and cannot bonus-action-heal (second wind), the wizard isn't very high level.

One of the most commonly mentioned fighters is the Battlemaster cbe, ss and precision attack fighter. That fighter only gets 17 ac before magic items. For most of the game the wizard likely has 15-16 AC and can shield up to 20-21.

 

[payn]

Maybe not, but even so a real quick way to eyeball in-party character balance is to think through, for each character in the party, how things would likely turn out if that character turned against the rest of the party under different situations.

In one game I play in, we're all quietly terrified of what would happen should our number-one Fighter ever turn on us as between her own abilities, her items and magic, and a few unique abilities she's picked up over time we simply wouldn't be able to stop her. The only survivors would be those wise and-or fast enough to flee before she got to them; and even then she has at-will flight meaning that if you're ground-bound she will catch you if she wants to.

Out of curiosity, what level does the fighter become the scary juggernaut against the party?

 

[Stormonu]

Considering the 20th level wizard has an AC that's probably 5 points lower, has probably around 60 HP less than the fighter and cannot bonus-action-heal (second wind), the wizard isn't very high level.

Between Invisbility, Blur, Levitate and other spells neither hit points no AC is of much concern if the wizard can't be hit or can stay out of range of the enemy and still blow it away.

As much as I enjoy playing fighters and the like, nothing the fighter can do comes anywhere near even a 2nd or 3rd level spell in ability in the end.