D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[DND_Reborn]

I would love to find a way to reduce the needed number of combats for attrition, without eliminating the concept completely. There has to be a happy medium. Why WotC hard-coded at 6-8 encounters a day I swear I don't know.

Agree.

IMO 3 would be better. I think (don't know) that 4E did something like 4 encounters were hard coded?

I say there because of random encounters. Typically, while traveling, you might have 1-2 encounters, and rarely 3 during a traveling day.

But, when you get into dungeon crawls that number can go up drastically... So I am not sure how to handle both.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I would love to find a way to reduce the needed number of combats for attrition, without eliminating the concept completely.

Delete the wizard?

J/K

Mostly.

 

[tetrasodium]

But it doesn't really, does it?

Which is why the threads exist about helping fighters improve and/or nerfing wizards.

For example, cantrips scale at 17th level, allowing wizards (and others) to deal 4 dice of damage, but fighters don't get a 4th attack until 20th level... It makes little sense IMO because otherwise they match up (5th is 2 dice and 2 attacks, 11th is 3 dice and 3 attacks), but not that last increase. Yes, they get to surge, but with 2.5 rounds per encounter over 8 encounters you have maybe 6 surges in 20 rounds during the day. Meanwhile, by higher levels, the amount of damage dealing spells wizards have totally outstrip any damage a fighter might do.

And, of course, as I said, unless you are dungeon crawling or doing an infiltration mission, IME you rarely come even remotely close to 8 encounters a day.

Basically nobody does 6-8 experience generating encounters per long rest without widening the scope of "encounter" to include basically anything but the addition of ability & weapon mods to damage from each attack dramatically puts fighter at will damage ahead of all cantrip users other than agonizing eldritch blast users who are only a little behind bonly adding one of the two. The disparity is so great that fighter at will ocydm meets or exceeds caster burst & by getting. More action surges fighters too benefit from lots of short rests in ways that casters not named warlock do not

 

[DND_Reborn]

Delete the wizard?

LOL, no please! They are my favorite caster class.

But, I am all for doing any or all of the following:

• Remove most damage causing spells so their focus isn't combat? (not joking )
• Force either a focus or a general. Focused casters get higher level spells faster, but can't do other things well if at all. General casters take longer to get higher level spells, but can do many things well, but not great.
• Stop cantrips from scaling after level 5, but allow all casters to add their spellcasting modifier to cantrip damage.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I know... imagine if the PCs are in a town and they leave it to travel to face the dragon, and the dragon doesn't have 7 lead up smaller encounters to force the players down... I mean even 3 sets of guards isn't enough.

I decided the adventuring day had to die when I tried to run a city-based game and realized how difficult it is to contrive eight fights (let's face it, that's what D&D considers encounters regardless of what it says) suitable for a gang of professional murderers in the middle of a population center that doesn't cause panic or attract an inquiry from the guards while also mattering to the story instead of being trash mobs every single day where interactions happened.

The answer was, of course 'trash mobs in the sewers or back alleys'.

And that's when I stopped using XP and the adventuring day forever.

 

[Yaarel]

I decided the adventuring day had to die when I tried to run a city-based game and realized how difficult it is to contrive eight fights (let's face it, that's what D&D considers encounters regardless of what it says) suitable for a gang of professional murderers in the middle of a population center that doesn't cause panic or attract an inquiry from the guards while also mattering to the story instead of being trash mobs every single day where interactions happened.

The answer was, of course 'trash mobs in the sewers or back alleys'.

And that's when I stopped using XP and the adventuring day forever.

For me it was a seafaring campaign on a ship. There just is no 6 to 8 encounters per day.

I feel the solution is two long rests per level, and each player calls it for ones own character for a deep restoration.

At the same time, I have a new sympathy for "gritty rests", with the long rest requiring a week of rest, which would otherwise appeal less to me.



The benefit of two long rests per level (or rather two "deep" rests) is any narrative timeframe is possible, and the math still works fair.

 

[Vaalingrade]

For me it was a seafaring campaign on a ship. There just is no 6 to 8 encounters per day.

Ah, the ocean campaign. As if getting the players into 8 fights wasn't hard enough, now it's 8 aquatic fights, which no one ever wants to do, but the DM really wants to use the cool monsters.

I feel the solution is two long rests per level, and each player calls it for ones own character for a deep restoration.

At the same time, I have a new sympathy for "gritty rests", with the long rest requiring a week of rest, which would otherwise appeal less to me.



The benefit of two long rests per level (or rather two "deep" rests) is any narrative timeframe is possible, and the math still works fair.

I don't level them that often, so it would really just me deleting wizards with extra steps.

 

[Maxperson]

8 encounter a day is how WOTC keeps wizards from outdoing fighters in combat.

It literally has nothing to do a fighters vs. wizards dynamic. 6-8 encounters a day is how they keep every class from just using every ability over just a few fights and making an already easy game so pathetically easy that there's no point in playing a combat. They used the hit point/attrition model to balance combat for all classes and screwed things up in my opinion. If a DM sets up a single encounter for the day that can survive the party nova, it can dish back so much damage with DCs so high that it's going to TPK more often than not.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Having anything based on number of encounters is bad design IMO.

FWIW, we've adopted "semi-gritty" rests:

short rest: 4 hours (a good "nap" and some down time)
long rest: 24 hours (6-8 sleep, plus a lot of down time, light activity/travel on non-difficult terrain is ok).

Any fighting or travel over difficult terrain for an hour or more negates rest, as well as any spellcasting other than cantrips.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't level them that often, so it would really just me deleting wizards with extra steps.

Ah.

Yeah, the two long rests per level depend on the math. It depends on how many encounters it takes to level.

For much of the campaign, especially tier 5 to 8 but also tier 9 to 12, there are about 15 standard encounters per level, so a rest per 6 to 8 encounters works out to be twice.

But if leveling happens less often, with many more encounters before the next level, then have a deep rest for about every seventh encounter.



For me, I dont use experience point nor milestones. I count encounters before leveling the party. If an encounter turns out easier than I expect, it counts as only half an encounter, and if it is a near-TPK, it counts as two encounters. Likewise, noncombat encounters count the same, whether easy, standard, or hard.

The encounters start at roughly 4, 7, 10, and 13 encounters for the levels of the apprentice tier. Then the number of encounters stabilizes at around 16 encounters per level (give or take depending on the narrative) for the professional tier 5-8 and the master tier 9-12. For the archon tier 13-16 and legend tier 17-20, the encounters drop back down to about 10. I use two deep rests per level for every tier. The apprentice tier needs the help, and the archon and legend have earned their plot protection.