D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[Maxperson]

even at 8 encounters a day wizards still spend more then half there rounds using 3rd+ level spells...

8 encounters 2 short rest so lets say 3 encounters rest, 3 encounters rest 2 encounters call it a day.

What do two short rests have to do with it? They can only use arcane recovery once a day and they're not going to have nearly enough slots for half spells to be 3rd or higher until like high teens or 20th level. If your argument is that the wizards are too good(and they aren't) at a level that the vast majority of game never get close to reaching, then it's really a non-argument.

Eight 4 round encounters means that they need to be able to cast 16 spells of 3rd level or higher. At 10th level(still higher than the vast majority of campaigns reach) wizards only have 8 spells in that category, and their arcane recovery restores 1 of those. So they are not only completely unable to even come close to half being at 3rd level or higher, but if they use them all in combat there are virtually no shenanigans for the wizard that day.

At 20th level they could do that, but still at the cost of all or almost all their shenanigans. And since they are only using a decent spell in half of the fight, the fighter will outpace the wizard in damage.

l and 1 wish... I mean 9th level spell sorry don't know how I made that mistake.

It's a pretty bad mistake. Why would the wizard cast wish and take damage in order to cast another spell when they could just cast another spell and not take damage? They aren't going to use it for any other reason and risk losing wish forever just to win a daily encounter.

 

[Maxperson]

For me it was a seafaring campaign on a ship. There just is no 6 to 8 encounters per day.

I feel the solution is two long rests per level, and each player calls it for ones own character for a deep restoration.

At the same time, I have a new sympathy for "gritty rests", with the long rest requiring a week of rest, which would otherwise appeal less to me.



The benefit of two long rests per level (or rather two "deep" rests) is any narrative timeframe is possible, and the math still works fair.

I may have to try that. What I'm doing now is 1 long rest per week, but it doesn't take an entire week. I can of course extend that or shorten it if circumstances warrant. For example, the the group had a number of really hard encounters over only a few days. Those encounters culminated with the group freeing a lost temple to a good god from an occupying evil force that was desecrating it. That god of course was aware of what happened and out of gratitude created a peaceful and restful feeling in the temple that gave them an early long rest.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I would love to find a way to reduce the needed number of combats for attrition, without eliminating the concept completely. There has to be a happy medium. Why WotC hard-coded at 6-8 encounters a day I swear I don't know.

The answer is, as it is so often, in 4e DnD: limit the amount of healing between combats.

Short answer: build the system around one fight per day and add in attrition stuff, not the other way around.

If you can only bring 100 hp to a fight, then fights can be balanced around 100 hp per pc. If you can only heal 100 hp per day, than in a more-than-one fight per day scenario, you can balance the day with attrition around 200 hp between all the fights.

Essentially: one fight per day: 100 hp, balance to do 80 damage each then the pc's heal up but they were gonna do that anyway. 2 fights per day: 100 for the first, balanced for 80 damage, then spend 80 from the reserve to top up and have 100 going into the second. 3 fights per day: the balance goal is now 180 between three fights, so maybe each should be 60 (the first two completely drain the reserve and the pc's go in with only 80 hp) - or 40, then 60, then 80. Four fights now need to be smaller.

Note that I'm just guessing that averaging 80% damage per fight will be a good drain amount, and he reserve amount is a total butt-pull. Use whatever numbers work best in practice.

 

[HammerMan]

I decided the adventuring day had to die when I tried to run a city-based game and realized how difficult it is to contrive eight fights (let's face it, that's what D&D considers encounters regardless of what it says) suitable for a gang of professional murderers in the middle of a population center that doesn't cause panic or attract an inquiry from the guards while also mattering to the story instead of being trash mobs every single day where interactions happened.

The answer was, of course 'trash mobs in the sewers or back alleys'.

And that's when I stopped using XP and the adventuring day forever.

yeah I tried to run a (GTA inspired) low level game back a few years ago, I made a metropolis, and 2 smaller cities (1 farming 1 fishing) near by and had all the crime lords running the show (Okay I also used shredder from TMNT but hey give me a break) I found by level 5 our cleric and our warlock were by far NEVER going to run out of abilities and our Rogue (who I thought would be the star) was falling behind.

 

[HammerMan]

What do two short rests have to do with it? They can only use arcane recovery once a day and they're not going to have nearly enough slots for half spells to be 3rd or higher until like high teens or 20th level. If your argument is that the wizards are too good(and they aren't) at a level that the vast majority of game never get close to reaching, then it's really a non-argument.

this was in responce to a conversation talking about 3 attacks on a fighter... I can't talk about compareing to a 17th level fighter and make it a 5th level mage... I mean I CAN, and at that point it would give the fighter the advantage... but by 9th level that wizard will be catching up

Eight 4 round encounters means that they need to be able to cast 16 spells of 3rd level or higher. At 10th level(still higher than the vast majority of campaigns reach) wizards only have 8 spells in that category, and their arcane recovery restores 1 of those.

okay, so out of 16 actions the wizard takes (all day in a jam packed day) at 10th level they can only use 3rd+ level spells half of the actions... and fighters NEVER not even at 20th level get anything on par with the top 2/3rds of 3rd level spells let alone 4th and 5th.

So they are not only completely unable to even come close to half being at 3rd level or higher, but if they use them all in combat there are virtually no shenanigans for the wizard that day.

wait... you think shenanigans can't happen in combat? I mean tasha's laugh can shut down a target.

At 20th level they could do that, but still at the cost of all or almost all their shenanigans. And since they are only using a decent spell in half of the fight, the fighter will outpace the wizard in damage.

yup the one thing fighters do well is damage... and then only on rounds that the wizard isn't useing a big spell (so even if that is 1-2 times a day that is 1-2 times the wizard does better at the 1 thing fighters do best)

It's a pretty bad mistake. Why would the wizard cast wish and take damage in order to cast another spell when they could just cast another spell and not take damage? They aren't going to use it for any other reason and risk losing wish forever just to win a daily encounter.

just off hand you can duplicate a spell from ANY list... so you can res the cleric so the cleric can res the rouge and the fighter... but I mean that is just a quick idea.

 

[Maxperson]

this was in responce to a conversation talking about 3 attacks on a fighter... I can't talk about compareing to a 17th level fighter and make it a 5th level mage... I mean I CAN, and at that point it would give the fighter the advantage... but by 9th level that wizard will be catching up

No. This is a Strawman of my argument about a 10th level fighter and a 10th level wizard. Nothing I said could be construed to be disparate levels like that.

okay, so out of 16 actions the wizard takes (all day in a jam packed day) at 10th level they can only use 3rd+ level spells half of the actions...

Far less than half at 10th level. 32 rounds of combat and they have 9 rounds max of 3rd level or higher spells.

I mean tasha's laugh can shut down a target.

And very often results in the wizard being completely useless in that round. Target makes it's save and the wizard did jack that round except for lose a slot.

just off hand you can duplicate a spell from ANY list... so you can res the cleric so the cleric can res the rouge and the fighter... but I mean that is just a quick idea.

Cool. Outside of white room scenarios, it's just the wizard killing himself. He's better off using one of his other high level spells.

 

[HammerMan]

And very often results in the wizard being completely useless in that round. Target makes it's save and the wizard did jack that round except for lose a slot.

yeah becuse save or suck and save or die spells are ALWAYS bad choices... do we play the same game?
I mean it isn't in and of it self ALWAYs the best choice, but it and hold person are spells that are as useful at level 20 as at level 1

Cool. Outside of white room scenarios, it's just the wizard killing himself. He's better off using one of his other high level spells.

yeah, becuse no one has ever shared a story of wish helping... (Btw the example I used was one I saw in a game I played... I was the cleric who got killed even though I had revivify raise and even true res able to be cast...but not on myself)

 

[HammerMan]

No. This is a Strawman of my argument about a 10th level fighter and a 10th level wizard. Nothing I said could be construed to be disparate levels like that.

not a strawman... just not in responce to you... someone was saying that 4 attacks every round with 2 action surges per short rest would pull ahead over 6-8 encounters... so again this wasn't a 10th level fighter it was at least a 17th if not 20th level fighter

(edit: I went back I didn't quote you or mention you... I don't know how something can be a strawman against you when it doesn't have any mention of you)
I will do 10th level though since you want to... just not this second maybe after lunch

 

[tetrasodium]

yeah becuse save or suck and save or die spells are ALWAYS bad choices... do we play the same game?
I mean it isn't in and of it self ALWAYs the best choice, but it and hold person are spells that are as useful at level 20 as at level 1

yeah, becuse no one has ever shared a story of wish helping... (Btw the example I used was one I saw in a game I played... I was the cleric who got killed even though I had revivify raise and even true res able to be cast...but not on myself)

The problem is:

• A: They generally aren't very "or suck". Save or suck spells are very much neutered to generally be little more than a minor inconvenience.
• B: They are very much not save or suck in o5e, those spells are save or suck a little and save free still sucking a little or save free while the caster is generally required to maintain concentration.
• C: magic resistance & legendary resistance is basically the norm at the levels you are talking about to ensure

Take the web spell. The targets get a free save when cast. The targets get a second save at the start of their turn. If the target has already failed their save twice the target can finally be inconvenienced by the need to make a strength check as an action against the spell save dc if there are no suitable opponents that can be attacked within reach of whatever attack options they have. If the creature is magic resistant that's four failed saves before needing to expend an action.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Delete the wizard?

J/K

Mostly.

Every group is welcome to ban anything from their campaign that they want, classes included, but that's the level where a change of that sort can be made.