What makes a bard a bard?

[Brudewollen]

I'm playing a 3.5 Bard in a game right now and it's a bit annoying at times, to be honest. Fortunately we are doing mostly urban stuff now, so I get to use a lot of my persuasion and charming talents which has gotten us out of a lot of jams.

I think if their powers were more specifically about this than a mix of this and buffing then they'd make sense. Controlling foes through music and such is very useful and I've so far been focusing on this in my spell selection. Morale bonuses and such are also useful as secondary ability, but I think they are boring for the player - everyone else is getting to do stuff but usually the Bard has to hang back and when it's his turn all you get to do is say, "I keep playing that song and move here so I don't get hit." Lame character design. My DM has said that I can maintain a bard song and use ranged weapons if I want, just so I have more options, but I can't do melee or cast spells. I think that's fair and not overpowered.

Lore, logically, makes sense as an ability but it's a weird thing to use in-game and I've never liked it, neither as a DM nor as a player. It just feels like a crutch sometimes to finding things out rather than doing other things to find clues and such. It works better in my experience when a good DM uses the fact that you have a Bard in the party to impart back story or lore knowledge that he simply wants to get out there. He can write up a story, song, verse, etc. and give it to the player to read (sing?) in game, rather than having some guy come up to you and tell you stuff or whatever. But that's a story-telling thing, not a rules or powers thing.

I've been acting fairly rogue-like with my Bard. He lies CONSTANTLY to get us out of jams (sort of have the "Lies of Locke Lamora" in mind as a character template for him) and I wouldn't mind it if those abilities were expanded and strengthened even further.

Another way to maybe do Bards is to have different music or entertainment types be used for different kinds of powers. A bard can specialize in 1 type of entertainment for a certain type of power at 1st level and maybe every 5 levels can add another type. So, singing is used for controlling and commanding, percussion instruments are use for boosting courage, stats, etc., acting helps with lying, bluffing or other kinds of deception powers, woodwind for charm effects...just some thoughts off the top of my head. It might make them more limited in scope in some ways, but if you really boost what they can do with each power-set they might be more useful as to what the player wants to do with their Bard.

 

[Staffan]

Morale bonuses and such are also useful as secondary ability, but I think they are boring for the player - everyone else is getting to do stuff but usually the Bard has to hang back and when it's his turn all you get to do is say, "I keep playing that song and move here so I don't get hit." Lame character design. My DM has said that I can maintain a bard song and use ranged weapons if I want, just so I have more options, but I can't do melee or cast spells. I think that's fair and not overpowered.

The PHB says you can do pretty much anything other than casting spells or use other bard songs while maintaining a bard song. Of course, this should be somewhat limited by common sense - if you use a lute for your bardic music ability, your hands are kind of busy.

In addition, the primary bard buff, inspire courage has a duration of 5 rounds after you stop singing. 5 rounds is usually enough for a fight, or at least enough for all but the mopping up.

 

[Kzach]

yuck. that must be because dnd's dabbler/swashbuckler bard had nothing to do with historical or mythical bards, whose knowledge and poetic talents were considered magical in themselves and didn't need the intervention of otherworldly patrons.

Like?

The only one that I've ever come across is Taliesien, and that was a mythical tale based around a magical birth. Somewhat an exception rather than a rule and even then, his magic was limited mainly to shapeshifting and clairvoyance and a bit of elemental stuff, ie. druidic.

All the so-called 'bards' in folklore gained the title of bard as a secondary aspect, not a primary one. They were mainly warriors and druids who happen to be good at poetry and story-telling. Something valued amongst heroes, since someone has to sing your praises and who better to do it than yourself?

There really aren't any mythical or otherwise examples of bards to draw on, which is why they're hard to conceptualise and create. The 1e bards were based on the Celtic folklore where pretty much every god was a druid-warrior-poet, and the most famed god was the best at all of it.

Most bards were basically just up themselves heroes who wanted everyone to know about their deeds so that their story would live on. It was the only form of immortality people had in a world without the written word.

 

[Herobizkit]

Kung Fu Hustle meets Slayers meets Rock N Rule.

The fact that someone besides me remembers this toon is an inspiration and brings much joy to my person.

Personally, I like World of Warcraft's take on the Bard, but I'm kooky like that.

Bards used to be awesome in 2nd ed, way less so in 3e. Why? My only guess is that, in 2ed, the Bard really WAS the Jack-of-All-Trades, filling the gaps between all of the core classes without outshining any of them. It was like multi-classing, but with only one class. It was even better when the Bard's Handbook came out and really gave some depth to the class (as well as multi-classing options).

Bards pale in 3e because, with the openness of character creation, any character can be a jack-of-all-trades and have multiple abilities quite easily, and the Bard is constantly and overwhelmingly outshone. That's because the Bard is now a "Support" class, and that role has been well-enforced rules-wise.

To that end, 4e Bards should fall into three main "trees" of speciality:
The "Warrior" Bard: Much like the Blade of 2ed, this guy uses weapon tricks to excellent effect. Gains WP as Fighter, loses spells.
The "Sage" Bard: Much like the Loremaster, this guy focuses on Knowledge skills and increases his spell repertoire to overcome challenges when searching for lore. Gains spells like the 3ed sorcerer, uses only simple weapons.
The "Social" Bard: Most like the core Bard, character specializes in entertainment and public relations. Increased Rogue abilities, spells limited to illusions, charms, and the like.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

yuck. that must be because dnd's dabbler/swashbuckler bard had nothing to do with historical or mythical bards, whose knowledge and poetic talents were considered magical in themselves and didn't need the intervention of otherworldly patrons.

yuck. I think basing bards purely on historical or mythical sources is a terrible way to go.

 

[Chimera]

everyone else is getting to do stuff but usually the Bard has to hang back and when it's his turn all you get to do is say, "I keep playing that song and move here so I don't get hit." Lame character design. My DM has said that I can maintain a bard song and use ranged weapons if I want, just so I have more options, but I can't do melee or cast spells. I think that's fair and not overpowered.

You're missing out a LOT. Your Bardic Inspiration lasts for six rounds (the one it's done in plus five afterwards), so you can Inspire, and then cast, melee, do all sorts of other things. After all, how long does your average combat last?

I've only inspired (I won't say "sung" as mine is an Orator) twice in a single combat on one occasion, a TRNLAEWMT* that made the battle go way too long. Otherwise, if it takes a long time to close (as in Friday night's TRNLAEWMT), I wait until we close to perform.

But otherwise, Inspire, move, cast, melee, range... Sure I'm not the most effective fighter because of STR 10 for melee and Shortbow for ranged, but I kill a reasonable number of our enemies, heal a reasonable number of my friends, and definitely contribute well to our battles, if not in the direct "I do N damage" route. Yes, that can be annoying/disappointing/boring for some people, but I'm getting used to it and it does make me stretch as a player.

(On the OMGTFC front: Adding +3 to hit (inspire) to my cohort meant that he was hitting the mooks with his Produce Flame on a *2*. FLAME ON)

* Typical Ryan Nock Level Appropriate Encounter With Massive Terrain.

All too common in War of the Burning Sky. Friday it was "Take better than 20 rounds (under fire) to get up the hill to the watchtower. Spend all night on one combat. One character killed, one almost killed, use more healing than any four person group is ever going to have. Wonder what the heck the designers are thinking if this is designed for FOUR PCs. (we have six, plus a cohort)"

 

[Spatula]

IMy DM has said that I can maintain a bard song and use ranged weapons if I want, just so I have more options, but I can't do melee or cast spells. I think that's fair and not overpowered.

Well, no wonder you think playing a bard is annoying - your group is playing it wrong.

You can do anything but cast spells or use command-word-type items while "maintaining" your songs, which are a standard action to start but no action to keep going. This is pretty clearly spelled out in the bard entry. Plus your songs keep going for a time after you stop singing, so you can have multiple song effects going at once.

 

[Ghaerdon Fain]

Yes I've been convinced... a Bard has a place in my game. S/he will be an NPC though and will have the same skills as Robin's Bard in The Holy Grail: the Bard will have a great At Will Power: Pathetic Encouragement. The -4 Attack song goes like this...

"Bravely bold __insert name of player here__ rode forth from Camelot
He was not afraid to die, O brave ___ ______
He was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways
Brave, brave, brave, brave ___ _______
He was not in the least bit scared
to be mashed into a pulp
Or to have his eyes gouged out and his elbows broken
To have his kneecaps split and his body burned away
And his limbs all hacked and mangled, brave ___ _______
His head smashed in and his heart cut out
And his liver removed and his bowels unplugged
And his nostrils raped and his bottom
burnt off and his pen^$...
He is brave ___ _______,

Brave ___ ______ ran away
Bravely, ran away...away...
When danger reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled
Yes, brave ___ _____ turned about
And gallantly he chickened out
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat
Bravest of the brave, ___ _______

[ later ]

He is packing it in and packing it up
And sneaking away and buggering off
And chickening out and pissing off home,
Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge.""

 

[Afrodyte]

There really aren't any mythical or otherwise examples of bards to draw on, which is why they're hard to conceptualise and create. The 1e bards were based on the Celtic folklore where pretty much every god was a druid-warrior-poet, and the most famed god was the best at all of it.

Most bards were basically just up themselves heroes who wanted everyone to know about their deeds so that their story would live on. It was the only form of immortality people had in a world without the written word.

You haven't heard of Orpheus? Or the Pied Piper? Or Apollo? Or Pan?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

the bard has always one good argument:

you can steal my pants now, but i will leave you without pants forever...

bards song +3 to hit/ +3 to damage is great if you DON´T play poorly... when you play poorly, then it doesn´t matter...

and besides: +3 at LVL 6 to hit can make the difference between no damage and full damage +3 (the damage boost is only aditional damage, the to hit bonus is more important)

just make a list where you missed by 3 points (don´t forget confirm crits and especially 2nd and 3rd attack) and count it up...