What makes a controller a controller?

[Felon]

I think "intentions" wasn't quite the right word to use, but what DracoSuave is describing shouldn't be that complicated or controversial. What he is saying is that a proper "controller" spells provides a lot of freedom in how you can apply a condition, whereas proper defender, striker, and leader powers may apply the same conditions, but do so under a more restricted set of triggers or options.

Nothing is complicated or controversial...until you decide to disagree with it. And I do in fact think that the argument you are supporting is presented as being prima facie correct, and therefore not in need of substantiation.

Personally, I see classes of other roles throw out effects that exert extreme and unrestricted degrees of control all the time. Even in a controllerless party, we'll have multiple blind, dazed, prone monsters at any given time.

A proper leader power applies the condition, but in a way that heps other players. I.e. powers that knock enemies prone next to the defender, or makes them grant CA to the striker.

Doesn't a controller apply conditions in ways that help other players?

I think that the controller role is the least well defined, and instead of looking at "what do current controllers do?" the question should best be put as "what should controller do?" I think the two simplest answers are:

1) Apply damage to multiple targets
2) Apply a variety of harmful conditions to enemies

You might add:

3) Modify the terrain, and/or the placement of enemies and allies

In addition, I would like to see controllers on the whole have good access to interrupts. And I would like to think that the controllers should have preeminent access to conditions that other classes have only in fairly exceptional cases, such as stun and dominate. But neither really seem to be the case.

 

[Piratecat]

Folks, please see my warning earlier in the thread.

 

[igniz13]

I don't even know what to quote right now, you're just missing the point.

A Cleric is there to lead.
A Controller is there to control.

Firestorm, the example power you used, is not a strong Controller power, it's just an AOE that does damage and it's not a strong Leader power either.

The Cleric doesn't have a trend of control through out his powers, there aren't many powers you could throw on top of Firestorm to increase it's control or damage. But a Controller has plenty, available at-will and at lower level than the Cleric.

Every class can take a power that suits it's own desires, but the way they use those powers will often be inline with their own approach to combat, as has been explained before.

Think about why a Cleric might cast Firestorm. It's more likely to protect his allies than it is to hurt an enemy. Because without some form of control to keep an enemy in the burst, the enemies just going to walk out or deal with it. So it's far less useful as Control without someone to throw control on-top of it. Where's that Control going to come from?

The other classes? They may have some control, they may not, the controller most likely will.

That's the entire point that's trying to be conveyed, Wizards bring these effects to help with the tactics of their comrades.

If you look at Blinding Barrage as another example you used, it's not the best damage dealing power, which is what the Striker is meant to be doing.

If you look at the encounter powers, Dazing Strike (the power I picked up on) is good for continueing CA and sometimes useful for granting Daze as an effect, but it's not as good as Torturous Strike for damage or Positioning Strike for accuracy.

Picking a control power isn't always logical for a non-controller, for a controller, anything but a controller power becomes odd.

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

Felon, I think you think I am trying to argue with you. I am not.

I agree that many other classes have powers that look like controller powers (especially leaders). I think it is possible to somehow differentiate a proper controlling power from a non-controlling power, and one way to do so is to look at who or how it applies conditions to.

You also quoted me mentioning how leaders should be different, without quoting my immediately following sentence where I said they often aren't because of poor power differentiation. Even worse, you used a mean (MEAN!) shaking-his-head-smilie at me for not acknowledging that many leaders powers look like controller powers, when my very next sentence in fact stated exactly that!

If you look at how you respond to my actual list of controller definitions, it is clear you don't disagree with any of them. I think this is probably because we don't disagree on much.

 

[Herschel]

So are controllers just fragile defenders that inflicts control at long range? And defenders are beefy controllers that inflict control at short range?

Both can screw up a DM's plans, but one tends to be predictable and more obvious (fighter will mark/hit/whatever the guy he can get to) while the controller has a lot more freedom in targeting.

Defenders generally want to draw the action TO them while controllers ca direct action AWAY from them also (aside from status effects, which teh controller generally has more versatile ones). A well-played controller is a thing of beauty in tactical combat (and a headache as a DM. I HATE seeing psions on the table as a DM).

 

[Felon]

Felon, I think you think I am trying to argue with you. I am not.

Fair enough, and in any event no disrespect intended. For the most part, I feel I've said everything about controllers that I set out to say.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't see how 'other classes inflict conditions' is an indictment of the Controller classes.

I mean, every class/build but one inflicts damage (even a lot of damage, some of the time), and no one's claiming the Striker role isn't real.


I think a big misconception is that conditions and involuntary movement are all that's meant by 'control.' They pretymuch are if you're talking about the /Monster/ Controller role. The monster controller inflicts conditions, shoves enemies around, and is pretty tough, and that's about it.

The PC Controller role is different. It's fragile, it inflicts conditions and forces movement, but it also has a lot of Area attacks in it's arsenal, it's aggregate damage potential actually rivals the Strikers', it changes the environment, and has a very wide variety of situational powers, including utilities and rituals. The Controller role, in a nushell is not "I exert some control over the enemy" it's "I change the whole battle."

 

[nightwyrm]

This is just my personal observation as a DM so it may not be 100% accurate, but I've found that controllers tend be the ones who inflict conditions that creates complicated decisions for the DM. Other roles tend to inflict more straightforward conditions (prone, daze, force movement etc.). Sure, they're annoying conditions that can screw with the DM's battle plan, but they don't force the DM to make decisions. If your monster is dazed, there's nothing the DM can do about that and you wait for the condition to end. There's very little decision involved in dealing with that condition. Even for marking where the decision involving the monster's next target gets a bit more complicated, the best option is usually the obvious one where you just attack the guy who marked you.

However, my PC's druid has a power that slaps on a zone where my monster gets a penalty to hit while inside, but takes damage moving out and other stuff like that. Do I take the penalty to hit and wait for the zone to fade or move out and take the damage. I noticed that invokers also have a bunch of "monster do X, Y happens; monster do A, B happens" powers as well.

Of course, not all controller class powers are like that. They inflict straightforward conditions too, but they do have the bulk of "force the monster to make a choice between two bad options" power (at least once we get past the PHB wizard and the controller role gets more refined).

 

[ourchair]

A controllers usually says things like, "Okay, you can game but only after you wash the dishes, but make sure you're home by 11pm and don't leave your mobile on silent, always check yr mobile in case you miss my calls and remember that you have to empty the litter box tonight and..."

Wait, what?

 

[Angellis_ater]

The one thing I caught onto here is the 'Controller as the guy using shitloads of immediate interrupts to control the flow of battle'!

How would one expand on such an idea?