What Makes a Deity?

[S'mon]

"Let me tell you about my character" - there are ex-PC deities IMC, only one is currently active, and several were destroyed post-ascension (one got in a fight with Hel, another broke a treaty and was destroyed by his master, Graz'zt).

I have noticed though that few current PCs show much interest in worshipping ex-PCs.

 

[SkidAce]

Wow, are you copying my campaign?!

Great minds think alike. I have always enjoyed the Sumer/Babylonian style powers, just brings a mythic feel I like.

eg Nergal absorbed Orcus' Undeath portfolio and is now often called Nergal-Orcus

Whoah.....that has such a nice ring to it if I ever ever kill off Orcus...it's gonna have to be like that...Nergal-Orcus...sweet!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

...just reminded myself I need to email you about the August trip (I might need to set it one week later if thats no problem; 20th-31st that would be).

Wow, are you copying my campaign?! Major deities IMC include Girru and the Sword Rulers (Arioch Xiombarg Mabelode). Tharizdun was destroyed awhile back, though. Various other deities and demon lords have been destroyed and their portfolios gradually absorbed by other entities, eg Nergal absorbed Orcus' Undeath portfolio and is now often called Nergal-Orcus; while Xiombarg recently absorbed Lolth's portfolio - but to the Drow she's simply 'Lolth' or 'Lolth Returned'. Girru became a major deity following the destruction of Anu and Marduk, likewise.

Converting your 1E Sword Gods to 4E is easy enough.

Mabelode 41, Xiombarg 38, Arioch 35...as I mentioned before your Graz'zt is in around Level 37.

If you wanted to set the Sword Gods up as a trinity (as opposed to staggered power) then I'd suggest using Level 38 for all.

then again you could always drop them down a bit. My guess is Lolth will probably be Level 35 Solo (Lurker?) in Monster Manual 3.

Basically for Solos...

Elder Ones = 42-46
Greater God = 37-41
Lesser God = 32-36
Demigod = 27-31
Quasi = 22-26

If it was an issue, you would probably want Rhynn & Kwll at 45 ish.

 

[Votan]

If it was an issue, you would probably want Rhynn & Kwll at 45 ish.

Wouldn't this make them awfully challenging for 30th level characters to defeat?

On the other hand, you do want Kwll to be stronger than Mabelode (even if only by a hair) as he does defeat him despite Mabelode having help (although Corum is pretty convinced the fight is suicidal so it's got to have been close).

 

[SkidAce]

Using the examples from published sources I came up with this...started off with Tiamat and Bahamat as the baseline...

Greater: 34, 35
Lesser: 30-33
Demigod: 25-29
Quasi-deity: 20-24


Demon Prince: 31-34
Demon Lord: 25-30

Archduke: 30
Duke: 25-29

This does create a lot of quasi-dieties and demi-gods, but I like it that way.

 

[Snoweel]

Wouldn't this make them awfully challenging for 30th level characters to defeat?

I presume that if the deity was presented in an adventure as a combat encounter that 30th level PCs had a chance of defeating, there would be various quests to hobble or 'depower' the deity leading up to the final battle.

If that was the case then the deity could be represented in combat statistics as a level 35-ish solo monster.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Wouldn't this make them awfully challenging for 30th level characters to defeat?

No...it would make them impossible for Level 30 characters to defeat. There is a ceiling limit of about +5/+6 levels for what is technically practical. Beyond that its just a squash.

That said, I am working on (3PP) rules for the Legendary Tier (31-40)* so these things have to be considered.

*For starters.

On the other hand, you do want Kwll to be stronger than Mabelode (even if only by a hair) as he does defeat him despite Mabelode having help (although Corum is pretty convinced the fight is suicidal so it's got to have been close).

My impression from the story is that Rhynn and Kwll defeat Mabelode and his forces relatively easily. Though I agree Corum believed the battle suicidal, but he was also shocked that the two Overgods existed outside the cosmic balance, so clearly he didn't have the full picture (or measure) of them. Also Kwll is pretty nonchalant about killing all the gods of law too again suggesting he and his brother made short work of them.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Using the examples from published sources I came up with this...started off with Tiamat and Bahamat as the baseline...

Greater: 34, 35
Lesser: 30-33
Demigod: 25-29
Quasi-deity: 20-24

Demon Prince: 31-34
Demon Lord: 25-30

Archduke: 30
Duke: 25-29

This does create a lot of quasi-dieties and demi-gods, but I like it that way.

According to WotC; no Greater Gods have yet been detailed in 4E. Bane, who is unstatted, has a Level 32 Exarch (IIRC) in Maglubiyet.

Tiamat, Torog, Vecna and Bahamut are all Lesser Gods.

I forget which WotC writer(s) mentioned it but they said Moradin (and Bane in a seperate post) would be Level 38 or thereabouts if they were detailing them.

The best way to sort things out is to convert the monsters to standard levels (Solo +9, Elite +4, Minion -8) and use the following:

Quasi-deity/Demon Lord/Duke of Hell = L31-35
Demi-deity/Demon Prince/Grand Duke = L36-40
Lesser Deity/Demon Monarch/Archduke = L41-45
Greater Deity/Abyssal Overlord*/Hell-Emperor = L46-50

*None since the Queen of Chaos...technically the Overlady then I suppose.

 

[S'mon]

My impression from the story is that Rhynn and Kwll defeat Mabelode and his forces relatively easily. Though I agree Corum believed the battle suicidal, but he was also shocked that the two Overgods existed outside the cosmic balance, so clearly he didn't have the full picture (or measure) of them. Also Kwll is pretty nonchalant about killing all the gods of law too again suggesting he and his brother made short work of them.

Yeah, I agree - I don't think Mabelode & all his forces amounted to more than a Party Level +0 encounter for Rhynn & Kwwll.

 

[S'mon]

Hey S'mon!

...just reminded myself I need to email you about the August trip (I might need to set it one week later if thats no problem; 20th-31st that would be).

Converting your 1E Sword Gods to 4E is easy enough.

Mabelode 41, Xiombarg 38, Arioch 35...as I mentioned before your Graz'zt is in around Level 37.

If you wanted to set the Sword Gods up as a trinity (as opposed to staggered power) then I'd suggest using Level 38 for all.

then again you could always drop them down a bit. My guess is Lolth will probably be Level 35 Solo (Lurker?) in Monster Manual 3.

Basically for Solos...

Elder Ones = 42-46
Greater God = 37-41
Lesser God = 32-36
Demigod = 27-31
Quasi = 22-26

If it was an issue, you would probably want Rhynn & Kwll at 45 ish.

Hi Craig - shouldn't be a problem with you coming a week later, but do let me know decently in advance for planning vacation, leave periods, D&D games at the Meetup etc.

I think I'm going to use slightly lower power levels - I'm using Orcus' MM1 level 33 solo stats for bloated Nergal-Orcus - the death of millions of Albines to the Mabden massively boosted him even as it weakened other Albine gods, except Girru who has a strong following on the southern continent.

Graz'zt is down a bit following loss of the Citadel of Chaos on southern Ea, he'd come in a bit behind Nergal-Orcus so I reckon I may use his standard 4e level 32 Solo stats.

I'm thinking something like:

Demigod - Level 21-30 Standard; > Level 12-21 Solo.
Lesser god - Level 31-39 Standard > Level 22-30 Solo
Intermediate god - Level 40-45 Standard > Level 31-36 Solo
Greater god - Level 46-50 Standard > Level 37-41 Solo

Greater gods would be the ones WotC thinks too powerful to detail.

Edit: This would cap Thrin out at level 30 Solo; OTOH only Aspects of enemy deities can enter your home plane (Ysgard), so nothing to worry about - until Ragnarok...