What Makes a Deity?

[Upper_Krust]

hey Simon,

Hi Craig - shouldn't be a problem with you coming a week later, but do let me know decently in advance for planning vacation, leave periods, D&D games at the Meetup etc.

Well I probably won't book it until the end of April, but I am giving you (an effective) 6 months advance notice.

I think I'm going to use slightly lower power levels - I'm using Orcus' MM1 level 33 solo stats for bloated Nergal-Orcus - the death of millions of Albines to the Mabden massively boosted him even as it weakened other Albine gods, except Girru who has a strong following on the southern continent.

Graz'zt is down a bit following loss of the Citadel of Chaos on southern Ea, he'd come in a bit behind Nergal-Orcus so I reckon I may use his standard 4e level 32 Solo stats.

I think the lower power levels will work just fine for your campaign. Also you'll have a cool Xiombarg (in Lolth) with Monster Manual 3 (probably Level 35 as I said).

I'm thinking something like:

Demigod - Level 21-30 Standard; > Level 12-21 Solo.
Lesser god - Level 31-39 Standard > Level 22-30 Solo
Intermediate god - Level 40-45 Standard > Level 31-36 Solo
Greater god - Level 46-50 Standard > Level 37-41 Solo

Greater gods would be the ones WotC thinks too powerful to detail.

Shouldn't that be 31-40 Lesser god, meaning a potential Thrin cap of Level 31 Solo?

Edit: This would cap Thrin out at level 30 Solo;

31.

OTOH only Aspects of enemy deities can enter your home plane (Ysgard), so nothing to worry about - until Ragnarok...

How would that work vis-a-vis Graz'zt invading Orcus realm (as per your old battle between the two?) or 'Exarch's' (?) like Mortis Deathlord (presumably a hero-deity?) slaying Lolth.

 

[S'mon]

I think the lower power levels will work just fine for your campaign. Also you'll have a cool Xiombarg (in Lolth) with Monster Manual 3 (probably Level 35 as I said).

Shouldn't that be 31-40 Lesser god, meaning a potential Thrin cap of Level 31 Solo?

How would that work vis-a-vis Graz'zt invading Orcus realm (as per your old battle between the two?) or 'Exarch's' (?) like Mortis Deathlord (presumably a hero-deity?) slaying Lolth.

1. Good point about Xiombarg-Lolth, and I'm looking forward to MM3
I don't expect the PCs to be taking down Xiombarg in melee combat, but I can see her Aspect making an appearance; like Elric fighting Xiombarg blade-to-blade at the end of Stormbringer.

2. No, I said 31-39 standard, so that lesser god solos are max 30, just as demigod standards are max 30.

3. Graz'zt-vs-Orcus IMC: You may recall that in 1e all Layers of the Abyss (etc) are technically the 'same plane'! So both would have been at full power.
Mortis-vs-Lolth IMC: Mortis reached Demigod, I can't recall if he was a Demigod in that adventure though. Anyway my approach to 4e is that you don't get to form an Aspect while you are a Demigod (this was true in late 1e also per Greyhawk Adventure's Avatar rules - see Iuz entry), Demigods are Epic level PCs (and in theory standard monsters) of levels 21-30. To exceed level 30 you need to become a full Deity through Ascension*, at which point you are semi-bound to a Plane, can form Aspects, etc.

BTW I'm planning to retain Quasi and Hero deity only as terms which refer to Epic (21-30) level characters who do NOT have the Demigod Epic Destiny; ie quasi-deities like Murlynd are quasi-gods, "like gods" but not gods, while hero-deities like Kelanen are 30th level Epic PCs (and similar NPCs) who do not have the Demigod ED but are still worshipped as gods.

*A demigod who dies, like Heracles, could be 'taken into heaven' through the intervention of another god, in which case they'll remain part of the pantheon, but forever capped at Demigod level (standard-30 or below). A demigod who completes his Destiny Quest achieves apotheosis, ascends, and becomes a full deity.

Re 'Exarch', this term seems to be used very loosely by WoTC, I've seen it refer to what appear to be Paragon-level characters. From what I can tell it just means something like "Divine Henchman", who can be of any power level less than their god. On that approach Thrin would be Exarch of Tyr, yet Vantor would be Exarch of Thrin.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

1. Good point about Xiombarg-Lolth, and I'm looking forward to MM3
I don't expect the PCs to be taking down Xiombarg in melee combat, but I can see her Aspect making an appearance; like Elric fighting Xiombarg blade-to-blade at the end of Stormbringer.

Cool.

2. No, I said 31-39 standard, so that lesser god solos are max 30, just as demigod standards are max 30.

The significance of which is what? If its just a number you picked then fair enough, just curious.

Also, just to clarify, IYC a Balor is now a Lesser god, right? Similarly an War Devil is effectively a Demigod now?

3. Graz'zt-vs-Orcus IMC: You may recall that in 1e all Layers of the Abyss (etc) are technically the 'same plane'! So both would have been at full power.

So with virtually every god realm now located in the Astral Plane, along with the Nine Hells, I presume that won't really apply to Intra-Astral battles then?

Mortis-vs-Lolth IMC: Mortis reached Demigod, I can't recall if he was a Demigod in that adventure though. Anyway my approach to 4e is that you don't get to form an Aspect while you are a Demigod (this was true in late 1e also per Greyhawk Adventure's Avatar rules - see Iuz entry), Demigods are Epic level PCs (and in theory standard monsters) of levels 21-30. To exceed level 30 you need to become a full Deity through Ascension*, at which point you are semi-bound to a Plane, can form Aspects, etc.

Aspects appear to be about -20 Levels in 4E, while Exarchs generally clock in around -10.

Or -15/-5 when dealing with elites instead of solos.

BTW I'm planning to retain Quasi and Hero deity only as terms which refer to Epic (21-30) level characters who do NOT have the Demigod Epic Destiny; ie quasi-deities like Murlynd are quasi-gods, "like gods" but not gods, while hero-deities like Kelanen are 30th level Epic PCs (and similar NPCs) who do not have the Demigod ED but are still worshipped as gods.

So Demigod = Quasi-god = Hero-deity?

Re 'Exarch', this term seems to be used very loosely by WoTC, I've seen it refer to what appear to be Paragon-level characters. From what I can tell it just means something like "Divine Henchman", who can be of any power level less than their god. On that approach Thrin would be Exarch of Tyr, yet Vantor would be Exarch of Thrin.

Indeed.

 

[avin]

Different takes everywhere.

On my games certainly you can't punch a god on the face, unless his faith has vastly decreased.

Faith is what makes a god.

 

[Votan]

No...it would make them impossible for Level 30 characters to defeat. There is a ceiling limit of about +5/+6 levels for what is technically practical. Beyond that its just a squash.

That said, I am working on (3PP) rules for the Legendary Tier (31-40)* so these things have to be considered.

*For starters.

Point -- if you are going to have characters of these levels then this scale makes a lot more sense. Kind of like the Immortals rules in BECMI -- it's important to have major opponents beyond normal reach.

My impression from the story is that Rhynn and Kwll defeat Mabelode and his forces relatively easily. Though I agree Corum believed the battle suicidal, but he was also shocked that the two Overgods existed outside the cosmic balance, so clearly he didn't have the full picture (or measure) of them. Also Kwll is pretty nonchalant about killing all the gods of law too again suggesting he and his brother made short work of them.

I'm not sure about where the gods of law ranked in all of this as they seemed to be diminished at the time. I was never able to decide if the battle was "tough but possible to win" and Kwll got lucky or if he was a lot stronger than I thought. And I agree there was some deliberate ambiguity.

But your interpretation is certainly supported by what we know at least as well as mine.

 

[S'mon]

The significance of which is what? If its just a number you picked then fair enough, just curious.

Also, just to clarify, IYC a Balor is now a Lesser god, right? Similarly an War Devil is effectively a Demigod now?

So with virtually every god realm now located in the Astral Plane, along with the Nine Hells, I presume that won't really apply to Intra-Astral battles then?

1. 30 is the highest level a PC can be, the rest is scaled from there.

2. No, for one thing IMC the typical 'Type VI Demon' is probably a high-Paragon Elite, ca 16th-20th. I'm only planning to use the listed MM1 27th level Elite stats for the most powerful 'Demi Lords of the Abyss' - and they're not in any sense gods, they don't usually have worshippers, they just have a lot of raw power. A strong Balrog can certainly take on a weak god, though.

3. For 4e, obviously, the deity generally resides in its Domain in the Higher Worlds (Moorcock)/Astral Sea (4e), but can send out Aspects. The strength of the Aspect on a particular world depends on how well the deity is established on that world, again as per Moorcock, and per Leiber (Rime Isle). Most deities can voluntarily physically leave their domain if necessary, but at the cost of a loss in power and at the risk of being permanently destroyed by their enemies.

 

[Upper_Krust]

hey there Votan!

Point -- if you are going to have characters of these levels then this scale makes a lot more sense. Kind of like the Immortals rules in BECMI -- it's important to have major opponents beyond normal reach.

Absolutely. As we see in 4E, the epic opposition stretches all the way up to Level 35/36. So any Legendary Tier would require up to Level 45 enemies you could say.

I'm not sure about where the gods of law ranked in all of this as they seemed to be diminished at the time. I was never able to decide if the battle was "tough but possible to win" and Kwll got lucky or if he was a lot stronger than I thought. And I agree there was some deliberate ambiguity.

But your interpretation is certainly supported by what we know at least as well as mine.

I am on the Moorcock forums (although I haven't posted there in year or two) I could always go ask him and see what he says.

 

[Upper_Krust]

hey Simon!

1. 30 is the highest level a PC can be, the rest is scaled from there.

Even a (hypothetical) Level 39 PC would be much more powerful than a Level 30 solo NPC conversion.

PCs in the game are effectively Elite Level Monsters/NPCs. Thats why you typically balance encounters for them against 1 standard monster per PC and its not a 50/50 chance of losing.

So a Level 39 Lesser God PC would not convert to a Level 30 Solo NPC, but rather a Level 34 Solo NPC.

2. No, for one thing IMC the typical 'Type VI Demon' is probably a high-Paragon Elite, ca 16th-20th. I'm only planning to use the listed MM1 27th level Elite stats for the most powerful 'Demi Lords of the Abyss' - and they're not in any sense gods, they don't usually have worshippers, they just have a lot of raw power. A strong Balrog can certainly take on a weak god, though.

Fair enough.

3. For 4e, obviously, the deity generally resides in its Domain in the Higher Worlds (Moorcock)/Astral Sea (4e), but can send out Aspects. The strength of the Aspect on a particular world depends on how well the deity is established on that world, again as per Moorcock, and per Leiber (Rime Isle). Most deities can voluntarily physically leave their domain if necessary, but at the cost of a loss in power and at the risk of being permanently destroyed by their enemies.

The way to do that mechanically might be to use the Aspect (-20) as base then apply the Worship Points figures for their religion on that world*.

*Or possibly individual regions if they are isolated from one another.

Although it might be better still to handle worldly matters via Exarchs.

 

[Votan]

I am on the Moorcock forums (although I haven't posted there in year or two) I could always go ask him and see what he says.

That would eb cool beyond words.

 

[S'mon]

The way to do that mechanically might be to use the Aspect (-20) as base then apply the Worship Points figures for their religion on that world*.

*Or possibly individual regions if they are isolated from one another.

Although it might be better still to handle worldly matters via Exarchs.

Yeah, the given Aspects (eg Orcus' in MM) seem rather weak and diposable. WotC's intent seems to be that these are small fragments of a deity's power summoned by local worshippers for their own purposes. For my purposes I may need stronger Aspects/Avatars, probably about 8 levels below the full god - Orcus' as a Solo 25, say.