What makes Undead, Undead? and are all Undead evil?

[pawsplay]

I do like the notion that some undead, typically ghosts, are spirits with unfinished business. In real world mythology, I believe this emerged from the Roman Catholic notion of spirits going to Purgatory. Not sure, however, if most RPG campaigns have a notion of a Purgatory.

I don't think you can pin that on a specific religious tradition. China also has ghosts with unfinished business.

 

[taliesin15]

I don't think you can pin that on a specific religious tradition. China also has ghosts with unfinished business.

true, I meant more the notion of a Purgatory...'course I think there are some other cultures that had something similar, and I don't think there's something like that in AD&D, unless say that some souls travel to the Ethereal plane or something like that...then there's also the tradition of traveling with the Elves (sounds more like Gnomes in AD&D standard mythology to me) to their underground lairs where one parties with them, a splendid banquet, and then you wake up the next morning to find its 100 years later--that's a kind of Purgatory in a way

 

[Nyeshet]

Neither reason is unknown. Channeling positive energy is a good act and channeling negative energy is evil.

Looking at the 1e PHB and 1e DMG seems to indicate only Evil clerics got to try to compel service from the undead. Clerics could not be true nuetral so LN and CN Turned away the undead as well.

My 2e PHB is boxed up ATM.

In that case this is an example of the game contradicting itself. On the one hand the energies are completely neutral, on the other hand channelling these energies is intrinsically Good or Evil. The two statements contradict each other. Also, as they have now (in 3.5e) made various negative energy spells 'Evil' why not make all negative energy spells evil (ie: all Inflict spells, various others) and make all positive energy spells 'Good' (the Cure spells, others)?

At the present they send a mixed message. The Cure / Inflict and a few other spells are not morally aligned and so go well with their 'Pos/Neg energies are neutral' statement. The Animate / Create Dead spells and a few others that use negative energy, however, receive the 'Evil' subtype, and Turning /Rebuking itself is an intrinsically moral act - which do not sit well with their 'these energies are neutral' statement.

I wonder if 4e will make all Cure/Inflict spells aligned?

 

[Delta]

Prior to 3.5e creating undead was not necessarily an evil act. At the very least, the spells involved did not have an evil descriptor - that was added in 3.5e.

Not true.
3.0 PHB: "Animate Dead: Necromancy [Evil]... "
2nd Ed. PHB: "Animate Dead (Necromancy)... The casting of this spell is not a good act, and only evil wizards use it frequently."
1st Ed. PHB: "Animate Dead (Necromantic)... The act of animating dead is not basically a good one, and it must be used with careful consideration and good reason by clerics of good alignment."

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Keep in mind that a particular undead can be both Evil and good, just like a Succubus could theorectically become a Paladin yet still retain the Evil type.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Keep in mind that a particular undead can be both Evil and good, just like a Succubus could theorectically become a Paladin yet still retain the Evil type.

It depends what you mean by "undead can be Evil".

The core undead have an evil alignment, but do not have the Evil subtype. (Even the Nightshades - "Nightshades are powerful undead composed of equal parts darkness and absolute evil" - do not have the Evil subtype.)

So if an undead somehow gains a good alignment, the only connection to evil he retains (unlike the hypothetical Lawful Good succubus paladin) is that he still registers on a Detect Evil spell. Smite Evil will not affect him; Holy weapons will neither bestow negative levels nor deal extra damage against him; etc. The succubus, on the other hand, will still be susceptible to the Smite and the Holy weapon (as well as registering on Detect Evil), despite her good alignment, because of her Evil subtype.

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

In that case this is an example of the game contradicting itself. On the one hand the energies are completely neutral, on the other hand channelling these energies is intrinsically Good or Evil. The two statements contradict each other. Also, as they have now (in 3.5e) made various negative energy spells 'Evil' why not make all negative energy spells evil (ie: all Inflict spells, various others) and make all positive energy spells 'Good' (the Cure spells, others)?

I don't see a contradiction. The energies themselves are neutral, but intelligent creatures using them in specific ways are inherently good or evil. A sword is neutral, but using it to slay an unarmed good person is evil.

 

[RigaMortus2]

A sword is neutral, but using it to slay an unarmed good person is evil.

Not if you are a Lawful Good Kobold and an unarmed good person killed your litter of Lawful Good kobold babies because he assumed they were evil and didn't want them to grow up to do evil things.

(and yes, I am kidding)

 

[Goblyn]

I think that it is negative energy that creates undead; thus whether or not the undead themselves(as far as the free-willed ones go) are evil they will detect as such because negative energy detects as evil.

 

[atomn]

Not that it answers any of the post's questions, but in second edition there was an elven undead that was Good. Possibly even Lawful Good. As I remember, it was described as similar to a lich but entirely good. And they sought immortality so they could combat evil forever, as opposed to being immortal to further their own power. It was a pretty neat concept, I thought.