What makes Undead, Undead? and are all Undead evil?

[werk]

Not that it answers any of the post's questions, but in second edition there was an elven undead that was Good. Possibly even Lawful Good. As I remember, it was described as similar to a lich but entirely good. And they sought immortality so they could combat evil forever, as opposed to being immortal to further their own power. It was a pretty neat concept, I thought.

Yeah, good elven liches named Baernorn appear in 2e FR materials (and Icewind Dale CRPG), but as I said, we have positively aligned good 'undead' now, the deathless.

To the OP, I think binding any sort of life energies in a shell should be considered a non-good act. As for evil, it just depends on what and why you bound it there, and how strictly you read the RAW.

 

[atomn]

Hey Werk,
what book are the Deathless in? Tanks!

 

[RigaMortus2]

There is also a Good Lich in MM2 or MM3 I beleive...

 

[Nyeshet]

I think that it is negative energy that creates undead; thus whether or not the undead themselves(as far as the free-willed ones go) are evil they will detect as such because negative energy detects as evil.

Page number please? I can't recall any passage in any book I've read that states that negative energy innately detects as evil.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Deathless are in the Eberron Campaign Setting.


Yes, it would be nice to 'raise thread' on the last incarnation, but I think its wandering around as a skeleton in someones closet....

There is nothing clearly stated in the RAW as to why most Undead are Evil, just alot of circumstantial evidence that can be interpreted in a number of different ways.
It would have been nice if WOTC went to the point of clearly stating one way or another, as is the case with most discussions that end up pages long in this forum.

My interpretation, backed up by bits and pieces of how I think it works, is that raising the dead is evil if the soul is not agreeable to the return and the soul is not returning for reasons of vengance. The animating magics then bind the soul into the physical body.

Using this 'rule':
Unintelligent undead are always evil as the spell forces compliance
Intelligent undead tend to be evil, but they are not always
Construct, being powered by elemental 'souls' are nuetral.
Living Constructs are 'new born' souls that have chosen to return to the cycle of life in a slightly different form.

I have not {yet} gone as far as declaring that bringing a soul back into the work via arcane magic adds the appropriate alignment type.. altho I have been tempted.

 

[sirwmholder]

First I would like to thank everyone for their candor and I really appreciate the discussion taking place. Nyeshet, I love the outline of your campaign cosmology... I may end up using something similar...

Yeah, good elven liches named Baernorn appear in 2e FR materials (and Icewind Dale CRPG), but as I said, we have positively aligned good 'undead' now, the deathless.

To the OP, I think binding any sort of life energies in a shell should be considered a non-good act. As for evil, it just depends on what and why you bound it there, and how strictly you read the RAW.

I think you are correct in this. I find the act of binding to be the evil act in creation unless you have been requested to do such... though we all know the saying about best intentions...

The softcover Monsters of Faerûn book details a good aligned Elven Lich... however I do not have the source with me at the moment for details.

...channeling positive energy is a good act and channeling negative energy is evil.

I suppose the initial reasoning for questioning this subject comes from the cleric's turning ability. It seems odd that a good aligned cleric can turn or out right destroy undead yet the burst of positive energy he releases does not effect fiends or any other evil aligned creature. What is it in the nature of undead that makes them so susceptible to this ability? I know DM/GM's can rationalize/justify and implement any change to the core rules they wish I was just curious if anyone had any ideas to the reasoning behind why undead are tied to the negative energy plane? Even Arch Devils and Demon Lords who are the essence of evil can not boost such a claim. Ultimately they too are positive energy creatures just like every other creature except undead... just seems to be odd to me...

Again thank you for your time,
Hope this conversation continues,
Wm. Holder

 

[Nyeshet]

Using this 'rule':
Unintelligent undead are always evil as the spell forces compliance
Intelligent undead tend to be evil, but they are not always
Construct, being powered by elemental 'souls' are nuetral.
Living Constructs are 'new born' souls that have chosen to return to the cycle of life in a slightly different form.

Why, may I ask, do you consider the forceful / non-compliant enslavement of an elemental spirit 'neutral' while the same done to a spirit is 'evil'? It is glossed over in 3e and 3.5e, but this in fact the means by which constructs (or perhaps just golems?) are animated, as I recall.

Otherwise, I agree with this rule, as my setting description earlier (ie: my initial post, detailing the handling of undead IMCW) attests.

One possible nitpick I have - if a skeleton or other mindless undead can be animated / created without a spirit - as any object animated with Animate Object is - then would it still be 'evil' to create a mindless undead? Personally, I tend to take the view that mindless undead are without spirit. If they had a soul, then why would they not have a mind? Only Vermin and Oozes are Mindless (lacking an Int score), and I note that the ghost template cannot apply to either - suggesting that the two creature types lack spirit and therefore a soul.

Positive energy can animate objects by its own nature if present in an extreme degree. In fact that is one of the random possibilities of occurance while in the Positive Energy plane. I tend to take the view that Negative Energy can do the same, but for whatever reason it only does so to creatures that were once alive or to creatures composed mostly of parts of formerly living creatures (such as that odd Graveyard Golem from . . . Libris Mortis?).

If this is possible - and I seem to recall some adventure in the past that had a graveyard's skeletons / corpses spontaneously rising as mindless undead due to some potent Negative Energy source entering the area - then why should we presume that animating mindless undead necessarily require forcing the soul to return and entrapping it in a corpse? I can see this as true for mindful undead such as wights, ghouls, and vampires, but I have difficulty imagining this for mindless undead such as skeletons and zombies?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

As to your minor nitpick, if you Animated Object a skeleton, it would look the same as an Undead skeleton but would not be evil...of course some other mechanics would be different as well. That would be an interesting twist to throw at a group of undead hunters...
{Time to expand my HRs for GolemCraft 101 to include faux undead creation }


This gets into the whole 'soul' deal. At home I have a 'mind, soul and body' write up that explains how I see the mechanical stats reflecting the various aspects of beings. In this the Soul is tied to WIS and XP. Without a soul the character has a WIS of 1 and cannot gain XP.

Elemental spirits IMC are portions of the elemental force that animate objects and do not gain XP.

Animated objects, powered by elemental souls have a Wis of 1
Undead have normal Wis scores.

Constructs are a higher powered version of Animate Object that created an 'artificial' Wis based on the elemental soul, kindof like a limited AI.

The mind is a combination of INT and CHR. The animating magic provides at least a CHR of 1 either artifically or by enslaving the beings mind.

The old module you refer to probably should have used Animate Object or possibly even Constuct mechanics for the negative plane empowered undead.

{edit.. got home and figured I would post the entire ruleset...}
[sblock]
D20 Rules effects of Mind, Life-Force, Soul, and Body….

Beings are made up of 4 parts, this is to show what happens when one or more of these parts are removed and or destroyed.

First, to define the parts.

Body: The physical portion in which the other portions reside while on the material plane. Consists of STR and DEX. Loss of the Body means both these stats are reduced to zero. In some cases, such as Astral travel or becoming a manifested spirit, these stats are considered to be the same score as the characters WIS and INT (respectively)

Life Force: The supernatural force that holds the Mind and the Soul inside the body. Natural Life force consists of CON. Loss of this Life Force means that this stat is reduced to zero. Unnatural Life Force can be created that magically animates and binds any Mind and Soul. This Unnatural Life Force is reflected in a lack of CON score. The Unnatural Life force usually includes a set of ‘behaviors’ which the being will act out, regardless of any lack of Mind. The most common ways to lose Life Force include having it cut while travelling Astrally or by powerful Death magic.

Mind: The storing house for intelligence and memory, consists of INT. Loss of the Mind results in a score of zero. This mind remains with the area after death and can be contacted via a speak with dead spell and other means.

Soul: This is the supernatural portion of the being that consists of WIS, XP, and retains an alignment. The Soul cannot be destroyed, rather it returns to the outer planes. Souls continue to move into, and out of, the Prime material until they gain enough experience and alignment to transform into a planar outsider. Loss of a soul reduces the characters WIS to a score of ‘1’, changes the characters alignment to True Neutral, and makes it impossible for the character to gain any experience. Partially formed Souls are comprised of Elemental energy and are often used in animating objects and constructs.

The one remaining STAT… CHARISMA….
CHR is a combination of the Mind and Soul. Loss of the Mind makes CHR rather pointless, but a character can still interact without a Soul. One additional penalty to the loss of a soul is that your CHR is considered to be a ‘10’ for the purposes of interaction with others. Some animating magic fills in the blank when Mind or Soul is missing or not fully formed by installing an artificial CHR of 1

Legend:
Body {B} = STR & DEX
Life Force {L} = CON
Spirit {M for mind} = INT
Soul {S} = WIS & XP & Alignment

In this manner, the various beings can be ascribed to have:
===========================================
character = B + L + M + S
Construct = B + L + S(*)
Mindless Undead = B + L + S(**)
Intelligent Undead = B +L (**) + M + S (*#)

(* Constructs and Animated Objects use partially formed Elemental souls. The result is a neutral alignment and incapability to
(**either positive or negative dependant on how it is created. The magical alteration corrupts the Body and traps the Soul, meaning that Raise Dead and similar spells will not work and the Soul cannot continue its journey. The enforced inactivity will eventually wither away the Souls earned XP. As long as the Mind and Soul are not transformed, Resurrection or Reincarnation still work, but only after the unnatural Life Force has been destroyed.)
(*# Due to the corruption of the Life Force, the Soul transforms, becoming single natured similar to an Outsider. The Mind also is transformed in such a way that it cannot be recovered, not even by True Reincarnation.)

What happens to ‘Trapped’ Souls? When a soul is removed from its binding Life-Force and not in its natural plane, it tends to waste away, losing XP as time goes on. What power of forces are trapping it will determine how rapid or slowly this occurs. It could be as rapid as 1 level per hour, or as slow as 1 level per decade. A Lich’s Phylactery fits the latter circumstance, along with the ability to continue gaining XP.. so the loss is not too much of a sacrifice. The rate of loss will depend as well on GM preference, as accidentally activating a ‘Trap the Soul’ should not be a auto-kill of a character. Generally speaking, the unnatural transition is hard on the soul, much as being raised or reincarnated. It should generally include the permanent loss of one level.

Whats this bit about ‘selling your soul’? The eventual goal of a soul is to Transform and serve on an outer plane as either a demon or angel, eventually working its way up the ranks to possibly become more. Normally this occurs as the Soul gains experience and eventually makes a choice to align one way or the other. Demons like to short circuit this natural course of events by convincing a mortal to make this choice early. This adds a being of lesser power in their service, much preferable to waiting for the soul to make its own choice at a much later.. and more powerful, stage.

Living Constructs. In Eberron, House Cannith discovered the means to Reincarnate into a Construct, creating a ‘natural’ housing for Mind and Soul. The magical means of doing this are restricted to the Creation Forges, all of which are known to be destroyed. House Cannith has confessed to not ever learning how these artifacts worked and they do not have the ability to recreate them.
[/sblock]

 

[sirwmholder]

Legend:
Body {B} = STR & DEX
Life Force {L} = CON
Spirit {M for mind} = INT
Soul {S} = WIS & XP & Alignment

What is the difference between Spirit and Soul... or did you mean Mind?

This is a very interesting approach to the interaction of ability scores and dynamics of a character make up... body, life force, mind, soul... I like it... but something seems to be off... I think it's the separation of life force and soul... life force is the animating characteristic... as long as it's positive energy then the soul can be good or evil... as soon as the creature is animated with negative energy the soul is lost/trapped or the creature's soul is automatically corrupted to evil... is that the gist of it?

Thank you for your time,
Wm. Holder

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Yes, Spirit is meant to be the Mind. It is an odd split, but explains how Speak with Dead communicates with the memories of the dearly departed and why most natural reincarnations do not remember thier past lives.

And yes, you have the gist of it. Either the soul is forcibly trapped or is corrupted by the necromantic magic that unnaturally return it.

The whole train of thought was originally sparked by a discussion on what the mechanical effects of selling your soul would be