D&D 5E What needs to be fixed in 5E?

[brehobit]

I only made it though the first half of the replies, but I really find myself disagreeing with most of you.

4e moved too far down the "simplified board game" path for me. I'd rather it move back to simulation and say "screw balance" a bit more. Things should, in context, make sense. Why can the fighter only do something once/day? Even the slayer ends up with powers like that via utilities. Stop trying to build a good board game and make an RPG where immersion is easier. Get back to a skill system that actually allows one to have skills unrelated to combat. Remember that the game need not be solely balanced around combat. It's actually okay if one character is better in combat than the other if that other character has skills and abilities that matter outside of combat. A bard or thief in previous editions are good examples.

Give more power to the DM. One thing I do like about 4e is that you can sit down at pretty much anyone's table and from a combat viewpoint the rules are the same. But the price for that is non-trivial. The game seems to frown on "wacky" combat actions and actively discourages out-of-the-box uses of powers.

As a personal preference I'd move back to making magic generally more powerful but less available than bashing someone with a sword. Perhaps removing at-wills from wizards and the like and replacing it with limited use or resourcing-eating magic items (wand of magic missiles).

Encounter balance shouldn't be such an overriding concern. If an encounter with level-2 creatures literally eats no relevant resources but takes 45 minutes to play, we've got a problem. As a DM I feel each encounter needs to be a challenge, but challenge after challenge gets old. One way to achieve that is to have more long-term conditions. In particular I'd like to see a fully rested party be stronger than one that just about died yesterday. Limited recovery of powers and healing surges would be ideal. I did something like this for 4e Dark Sun and it worked out really quite well.

On the Dark Sun note: one thing great about Dark Sun 2e is that it really made the different power sources different in a cultural and game play way. 4e really lacks that--if you can do it with a sword you can probably do it with magic and visa versa. Ick. Make power sources matter again.

One thing I really like about 4e and I seriously hope doesn't go away: easier monsters for the DM (especially at higher levels). Monsters still require a clue and organization to run, but nothing like 3.5 above level 7 or so. I do think the random +1 status effects need to go away, but otherwise I'd not simplify it much more...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I suspect that our experiences are not all that different.

Are you telling me that the players that you have played with over the decades have all considered hit points to be "luck of the gods" and "magical protection" and other such stuff?

When running a game as DM, do you say when a first level PC takes 15 points of damage on a critical in 4E "The hobgoblin slashes Eleanor across the chest with his massive axe, making her cough up some blood." or some such?

Or do you say when a first level PC takes 15 points of damage on a critical in 4E "The hobgoblin slashes at Eleanor with his massive axe. She ducks under it, but her luck is about to run out."?

Are you honestly telling me that the second example here is what has narratively happened for decades in your games?

15 points of damage at first level will bloody (another damage implying term) most first level PCs and put them at serious risk of going unconscious.

Narratively in game and meta-game-wise in discussions out of game, I have never heard anyone talk about hits in D&D as anything other than actual hits or damage. I have never heard anyone talk about healing as anything other than healing. Not the loss and regaining of fatigue. Not luck. Not mystic protection.

This was just a out of game rational used to explain the mechanics of gaining hit points at higher level, but weapon damage typically did not go up much at all, for people bothered by the hit point concept.

I have never played with a single person (out of literally many hundreds of players over the years) who ever expressed the thought that the first 50 hit points of damage was being lucky and the last 5 hit points were actual damage. It has always been damage. Minor damage sometimes, but always damage. I've even been in games where being half damaged (i.e. bloodied in 4E terms) had a house ruled mechanics meaning and it was even called "half damaged".

In fact even in 4E, many of the players I've played with consider healing surges to be healing. They just hand wave away the logical inconsistencies and ignore them.

Yeah, I think our experiences do differ. Of course normally when you're just duking it out with some Joe Hobgoblin nobody is elaborately describing and rationalizing every bit of damage. You get hit, you go 'oof!' go on. But yes, for a character taking a relatively small amount of damage from say a weapon blow, I'll describe it as an effective attack in some fashion "the hobgoblin strikes a solid blow against your shield, your arm is tiring and you're guard begins to drop" or if the attack bloodied the character then maybe "the hobgoblin's axe slides inside your guard and grazes your leg", etc.

In other words attacks that haven't caused you any actual condition are simply wearing you down, digging into your store of luck, etc. If an attack does say bloody you, then chances are you got some kind of minor physical injury. Remember, there's no real debilitating effect there. If you're knocked to 0 then you've suffered some more severe result and you're disabled, like maybe "the hobgoblin lands a hard blow on your helmet, your vision goes dark." Did he break your skull, score a KO, or what? We don't know and we don't have to try to nail that down right that second. Let the narrative decide.

This is a key point in the way I envisage play and the way I thus have it work at the table. Character's abilities are 'plot coupons' that the players are allowed to use more or less frequently. If the warlord uses Inspiring Word on the character above, then there you go, it was a blow that knocked the character down hard enough they couldn't just get back up without help from a buddy. If the cleric hits him with a healing word, well then maybe it was a massive concussion and he was lying there dying. The players are as much entitled to decide that as I am.

If the PC survives the encounter? Well, then again if he's down at that point the same considerations apply. If he's conscious and has HS he can spend then he or his buddies bind up any wounds, they all rest up, refresh themselves, and they're ready to go again, albeit with their reserves depleted some. Maybe that represents some small wounds that are bound up, fatigue, etc. It doesn't really matter. The resulting narrative makes sense and represents a fun sort of action adventure feel where characters take it on the chin, go down, and then get back up, shake it off, and do it all over again, until finally they string themselves out to the point where they're just too slow and tired and beat up to hold off that one last deadly blow.

Of course if you take really huge massive damage and go splat! in one shot, well, OK the hobgoblin cleaved your helm from top to chin, brains dribbled out, and your story is over, pending raise dead perhaps. If you go down a death save yourself to oblivion, well, you bled out or whatever.

It is no less workable or abstract than the AD&D style thing where your 10th level fighter had 70 hit points and 10 guys stuck longbow arrows in him. Did you REALLY narrate that as the character walking around with 10 arrows passing through his body? I hardly think so. Either some sort of divine intervention happened, or the character fended off the attacks somehow, and/or he took some minor damage. The only real difference is that 4e gives you more tools and more reasons to vary the narrative.

Frankly for us in AD&D? We just ignored the whole thing because it was all utterly illogical and there was no point in explaining it. Now there is. That seems fun to me. So yes, our experiences differ and I found the AD&D version rather wanting. Especially since you HAD to have clerics by its logic and/or crates of healing potions. Try to do Conan style S&S in AD&D, it just fails miserably. It works fine in 4e (though less resilient characters would make it work even better, still, you CAN easily enough do that by reducing HS and HP by some factor if you really want to).

 

[Ryujin]

Wow. My experiences are totally different, especially now that monster damage has increased in the last year. Players tend to hoard Daily powers a little bit for when they really need them, so after 3 or so encounters, there is almost always a few PCs low on healing surges and it's the number one reason that the PCs hole up.

Course, our encounters are not very often N or lower in difficulty either. And, I've found that PCs burn through healing surges more so at Heroic levels than Paragon levels due to the extra temp hit points, damage resistance, surgeless healing, and stronger percentage-wise healing at Paragon.

Because of the type of characters I'm dealing with, as a DM, my 'standard' encounter is L+1. I've tossed L+3 at them, with fair frequency. That's with a Pacifist though.

When I was playing, we were hitting L+2 fairly often. We weren't even particularly well optimized, though I wasn't exactly stingy with the Dailies. We usually did 3-4 encounters, before a rest.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I suspect that our experiences are not all that different.

Are you telling me that the players that you have played with over the decades have all considered hit points to be "luck of the gods" and "magical protection" and other such stuff?

When running a game as DM, do you say when a first level PC takes 15 points of damage on a critical in 4E "The hobgoblin slashes Eleanor across the chest with his massive axe, making her cough up some blood." or some such?

Or do you say when a first level PC takes 15 points of damage on a critical in 4E "The hobgoblin slashes at Eleanor with his massive axe. She ducks under it, but her luck is about to run out."?

Are you honestly telling me that the second example here is what has narratively happened for decades in your games?

15 points of damage at first level will bloody (another damage implying term) most first level PCs and put them at serious risk of going unconscious.

back in 2e we use to describe it like this: "The hobgoblin and you cirlce each other, trade little jabs and slashes, then he swings a full force, you raise your sword catching the brunt of it as your arms take most of it. "

inless it droped you below 0 (aka dead)

then that same blow would be: "The hobgoblin and you cirlce each other, trade little jabs and slashes, then he swings a full force, you raise your swordbut he is too fast, and the axe enters your chest...killing you"

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Because of the type of characters I'm dealing with, as a DM, my 'standard' encounter is L+1. I've tossed L+3 at them, with fair frequency. That's with a Pacifist though.

When I was playing, we were hitting L+2 fairly often. We weren't even particularly well optimized, though I wasn't exactly stingy with the Dailies. We usually did 3-4 encounters, before a rest.

Honestly I think all the surgeless stuff they larded into DP was a mistake. A little bit of it here and there is OK, but when healing bonuses and surgeless healing gets stacked onto the party to the degree the pacifist could do (and even just a non-pacifist healbot build) it got a bit absurd. The nerfback a lot of that stuff got was well appreciated. You can still do a lot with the concept but now at least the action economy involved with it doesn't really favor the tactic for your average fight to the death type encounter.

 

[Droogie128]

. Why can the fighter only do something once/day? Even the slayer ends up with powers like that via utilities.

Because said Fighter is in combat for about 1 minute 30 seconds of a 24 hour period actually in combat. The daily power represents the big opening that he finally spots for a finishing blow. It's a narrative tool.

I'd rather them keep game balance as a primary design goal, to ensure that everyone at the table has fun and keeps the workload on the DM much easier.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I'd rather them keep game balance as a primary design goal, to ensure that everyone at the table has fun and keeps the workload on the DM much easier.

But that's assuming that "balance" is what makes people have fun. There are multiple ways of balance but I think the current one is what makes the game seem very stale.

 

[Droogie128]

But that's assuming that "balance" is what makes people have fun. There are multiple ways of balance but I think the current one is what makes the game seem very stale.

I think it makes the game seem more dynamic. Everything is built so that anyone can contribute without having to climb the ivory tower.

I also like the fact that they (until Essentials) eliminated needing to learn a bunch of different sub systems within the system. Everything worked under unified, smooth mechanics.

Yet another thing I'd like to see is the continued living errata. Shows that they care about the quality of their system by continuing to improve it. Some of the errata has been overkill, I must admit (laser cleric nerf, melee training nerf, etc.), but most of it has been done well. So long as they don't continue with nerfs that are for the sake of nerfs.

 

[KarinsDad]

As I said, teleport is generally better than short term flight, but that's not what you get at paragon, you get full on flight with a speed. Look it up in the Compendium, the vast majority of paragon flight is not the 'fly for the rest of the round' type.

Your earlier claim was that it was trivial to fly for an entire encounter and to be permanently out of reach of the enemy for the whole encounter. That's just not true. It's hard to get encounter long worthwhile flight, even at Paragon. Very few classes can get it at Paragon.

As you suggested, I looked it up. The vast majority of fly at Paragon are an effect of the power that is used right away, or lasts for a turn. So, you were mistaken on that.

And the vast majority of the lasts until end of encounter ones are level 20 Dailies and specific to a Paragon Path, or they have some other limit. Several of the lasts until end of encounter ones are limited such that the PC cannot attack.

There are exactly two non-Paragon Path classes that can get flight at level 16: Druid and Wizard. It uses a Daily in both cases and for the Wizard, it requires a sustain.

Platinum Wings, turn
Blinding Talons, attack
Storm's Rebuke, effect
Sorcerous Wings, turn
Angelic Aura, encounter, Paragon Path
Breath of the Four Winds, effect
Wings of Devilry, effect
Draconic Leap, effect
Zephyr Wings, encounter, Paragon Path, sustain
Soaring, All-Seeing, effect
Dustwalk, effect
Dragon Wings, effect
Soaring Falcon, encounter, Paragon Path, cannot do much like attack
Charge the Clouds, effect
Stormwalker, encounter or until attack hits you, Paragon Path
Storm Step, encounter, Paragon Path
Steps on the Purple Stair, turn
Flurry of Talons, effect
Falcon's Rent, effect
Insect Plague, encounter, cannot do much like attack
Falcon's Flight, encounter
Cloak of Shadow, effect, cannot attack
Fly, encounter, sustain
Duel in the Heavens, effect
Angel Ascendant, Paragon Path, encounter
Storm Dragon Rage, Paragon Path, encounter, must hit to fly, must land each turn
Celestial Skirmish, effect
Four Winds Tempest, effect
Draconic Avatar, Paragon Path, encounter
Starry Transformation, Paragon Path, encounter
Shadow Transformation, Paragon Path, encounter
Form of the Radiant Couatl, Paragon Path, encounter
Primal Eagle, Paragon Path, encounter, must land each turn
Divine Aspect, Paragon Path, encounter

There's even a Paragon Path that can fly anytime the player wants.

But as difficult or limiting as it is to acquire fly at Paragon, I would hardly call it trivia to do this. It's actually quite rare. Most players won't give up their Paragon Path to acquire a once per day fly.

Heck, there are even some heroic tier 'gain a fly speed' effects, they just generally have serious disadvantages (IE Mist Form, which lets you fly but not attack, similarly the powers Minor Polymorph and Flying Wings). I'd also note that flying mounts are available starting at level 5. An Elixir of Flying will give you a fly speed at level 11 for the whole encounter. Obviously this isn't even close to a full list, there are quite a lot of ways to get non-limited flying by paragon tier.

The 11th level Elixer of Flying doesn't have a hover. So sure, a PC could use an Elixer of Flying, but if he gets knocked Prone or Stunned, he's SOL.

In fact, getting knocked prone is the antithesis of flying. It doesn't matter if a creature has hover or not, that creature is falling. It might not take damage if it is at a low altitude equals to it's speed in squares, but it is coming down. If it is higher up, it will probably take damage (shy of Acrobatics or other magic).


Most acquirable flight occurs in Epic as a Daily power and then only until the end of the encounter. Some of it requires a sustain, so there are sometimes ways to break it.

The only flight that happens beyond end of encounter comes from a few Epic level items:

Mantle of the Seventh Wind at level 23 and it's a Rare item.
Zephyr Boots at level 24.
Airstriders at level 25, but you must land each round.

There's also Skystrider Horseshoes where a mount gains fly speed at level 18.

All of the other items use a Daily power and are also last until the end of the encounter:

Winged Boots, rare
Cloak of the Bat, cannot fight with it
Crownring of Tchazzar
Roc Armor, limited to Druids

Pretty much, flying for an entire encounter is pretty rare because most classes cannot get it and the items are uncommon or rare or limited for the most part. Will a DM really hand out 5 copies of the Crownring of Tchazzar?

Sure, some enemies may have missile weapons, so what? Many do not. Flying is never a disadvantage, and if it is you can just land. Full-on flight is GOOD. Teleport OTOH is like 1 round 'you must land' type flight plus 'don't provoke', of which there are far too many instances in heroic tier to even list, several of which can be repeated at-will. I also don't know of anything that states teleport isn't visible. This is a common assumption, but not stated anywhere in the rules, and I've seen it played both ways. Certainly since your destination has to be in LoS generally it doesn't do anything for you stealth-wise that any other form of movement doesn't by RAW.

Both are useful, but full-on flying is encounter-breaking and has significant strategic implications as well. There is a very slight disadvantage that you might provoke an OA (though interestingly many ways you can temporarily fly negate OAs).

Encounter breaking???

I'd hardly call an ability that is extremely hard to get for PCs until late Paragon and can be negated in a variety ways to be encounter breaking. And falling because a foe knocks you prone IS a disadvantage of flight.

Alternatively, if the PC Wizard is flying, the NPCs can walk into a building or another room, shut the door behind them, and let him waste his Daily fly. Problem easily solved. It's not that hard to change it from "encounter breaking" to "spell wasting" in many scenarios.

As for mounts, I've seen flying mounts teleported or sent to another dimension several times in 4E. Unlike forced movement, here the rider falls (check the errata, it's true). I'd not call a flying mount something that is always a major advantage for PCs. I've never seen a flying mount killed mid-flight in 4E, but that's an easy option as well.


All in all, worthwhile encounter long flight is rare or costly to acquire, and somewhat easy to negate. And short term flight has less utility than Teleport. I find your POV unsupportable by the facts on this.

The Elixer of Flying is about the only worthwhile option here and since it is an uncommon item, the DM controls it. If it gets abused some way to become "encounter breaking", he just never hands out any more of it. The DM totally controls all of the other fly items as well since none of them are common items. The players only control their Class / Paragon Path selections and that's pricey. Flying mounts? Let PCs have them. They are easy to kill, even in mid-flight. I'm not seeing where the players can definitively take advantage here. They'd really have to work at it for little gain.

I don't think it is anywhere near as abusable as you claim.


Teleport on the other hand has high utility encounter in and encounter out starting at level one, and it's easy to acquire via race, class, items, and even feats.

And obviously, short range teleport is only visible if the foe has line of sight to both points. Long range teleport? Not in my game unless we are talking a portal that shows the destination. Rituals would not show destination unless they state so like Linked Portal (seeing a teleportation circle in a room on the other side of the world typically doesn't tell the viewer where it goes).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

And that's why long range teleportation is fixed to spots the DM designates, or ones that the PCs are allowed to prepare specifically, which takes time and resources (and thus is really at best a retreat option), which is why were weren't talking about it.

Flying can certainly break encounters. It isn't even material how common it is to that. Yes, the DM can make it harder for you to get, it is still an option for MANY characters and open to all in some form or other. Mounts work perfectly well too, I don't know where you get that they're an inferior option. If they are level appropriate (and there are flying mounts that range all the way down to 5th level) they aren't at all dismissively easy to kill. If you want to put a condition on someone you first have to HIT them, which in many cases the bulk (often ALL) monsters in an encounter won't be able to do. Even if they can many of them don't stun or knock prone. It is quite easy for a character to thus enter into an encounter which is far more winnable. Really, I've run plenty of encounters, it works. I've defeated a couple myself that way.

OTOH really unless you want to try slasher cheese that is now nerfed, you aren't going to WIN encounters with teleportation, not very often. If you do find a way to do that, well, good for you, but it is at least as much up to the DM to build the encounter so you can do that as it would be to say build one with no or insufficient ranged attacks to knock someone out of the air.

Really the main thing from the perspective of the DM is to try to insure that not ALL party members can fly around extensively all the time. Notice though that most characters don't easily get teleport either, though some do get it for free too. I don't think the 4e designers were stupid. They understood the issue there. It IS easy to get flying, at paragon, if you want it. You missed some items and other tricks too, like figurines, carpets, etc.