D&D 5E What needs to be fixed in 5E?

[Tymophil]

Sure. But the assumptions and fluff of each edition impact the flavor of the game, especially if you're a new player. You read this-works-so and that-does-this and it trickles into your game.

I do agree with you. This is the reason why I resent so much the poor quality of the scenario inside the Dungeon Masters Guide (five combat encounters in a row, with Kobolds a plenty... Who allowed such a stupid scnario to be the introduction to D&D4?), and the terrible adventure called the Keep on the Shadowfell.

There are the rules within D&D4 to build a amazing world, awesome adventures and give the players and gamemaster alike a great experience... But it doesn't show! Especially for new players. Because designers at Wizards of the Coast did not take time to design good adventures.

I have read almost all scenarios and even the most praised (like the Slaying Stone) are subpar. The generic world is bland, the Nentir Vale is tasteless (even with the Monster Vault dedicated to the setting), colourless, liveless. It's a pity...

It is even sadder that many new players will discover roleplaying games through such experiences as D&D Encounters, or even worse Lair Assaults. D&D4 is percieved as a skirmish games by many players and despised for that. But, there is everything to promote roleplay rather than combat: skills challenge, quests (both minor and major) to give only two hints.

And there are flavors to mechanics, too.

That is also true, and I agree heartly. But D&D4 is the first edition of Dungeons & Dragons where one can experience a moment close to the iconic fight in Balin's Tomb, in the Lord of the Rings. It needs a little mending to get rid of some bad design flaws (turns are too long, powers don't translate easily enough into narration).

Anyway, the solution is not going back to the roots...

Moreover, if WotC doesn't care to invest in a good design team for adventure writing, they'd better open this side of the hobby to people that can do better than they do. A new edition won't do any good. The problem is not the mechanics, but the lack of creativity to make good use of the present edition, or of any edition by the way...

People play Paizo adventures with fourth edition. I have yet to hear of people taking the time to translate D&D4 adventures for another system... If WotC creates amazing worlds, fantastic adventures, then the system will shine, because adventures are essential to the game. A new edition will prove disastrous if people can't play good adventures.

D&D4 is like a turbo-charged engine (good mechanics) but WotC is filling the gas tank with water (bland settings, bad scenarios). Changing the engine (ne edition), while keeping the same fuel (terrible adventures), will do no good.

 

[KarinsDad]

There are a billion-and-a-half ways to get around OAs, and that's the main function of tactiport.

The main function? You aren't using it to it's full potential.

Teleport is used to get past traps or pits, or to climb without actually climbing (that Fighter can get up their with a Large Shield on). It's used when the Wizard is suddenly being threatened by multiple foes, so he teleports himself on top of a surface or behind the newly revised "front line". It's used to get out of Grabs and restraints, and quickly get past difficult terrain or water.

Flying can put you in a spot where you can't be attacked, which is something you cannot otherwise achieve most of the time, AND it has many of the tactical advantages of tactiport.

I would expect that advantage of a typically 16th or higher level Daily. That's not what happens in the lower half of the levels though.

I guess my point is I don't think tactiport needs to be blown away for some obscure flavor reason. Its fun and it works, and it isn't even close to breaking anything.

We are not discussing flavor reasons.

Here's the pros of short duration flight and teleport that the other effect does not have. If both effects can do something like moving over a pit or climbing, I didn't list it. I also listed the more advanced versions of each such as longer duration for flight or longer range for teleport. If you think of any others, please let us know.

Flight: Can usually move where the PC cannot see the destination within a single move action (around a corner, or over a wall, or when blinded).

Flight: The destination can be a squeeze location.

Flight: If the flight includes a fly speed, the PC can shift while using it (PCs can OA if they have a fly speed, but most short term flight is done on the PCs turn, so a PC typically does not get this advantage without Advanced Flight).


Advanced Flight (i.e. duration longer than a single round): At mid-Paragon, PCs can use it once per day per power or item in combat to stay out of melee range if all of the conditions are right (roof not too short, etc.). This use of it does have disadvantages such as prone or stunning knocking the PC to the ground. Note: there are a few heroic level versions of this like Levitate, but they have some other serious limitations or disadvantages.

Advanced Flight: Can be used out of combat to travel up mountains or other semi-significant distances.

Advanced Flight: Can prevent long distance falling (i.e. over 500 feet, nearly all short term flight cannot be used quickly enough to stop a fall).


Teleport: Moves through zones or auras or other hazards without a problem.

Teleport: Often avoid OAs and sometimes avoid interrupts.

Teleport: Can move into/through/out of water.

Teleport: Can be used when immobilized and if physical, removes it.

Teleport: Can be used when restrained and if physical, removes it (including grab or traps or power effects).

Teleport: Can sometimes be used offensively (e.g. teleport a foe into hindering terrain (fall, damage, or movement preventing), teleport a flying mount from under a rider, teleport a foe to a disadvantageous location).

Teleport: Can sometimes be used to swap places with an ally.

Teleport: Can teleport where you can see, but you have no line of effect to.


Advanced Teleport: (i.e. portals and rituals and a lot more powerful than just movement effects) moves PCs great distances instantaneously. Much further and faster than advanced flight.

Advanced Teleport: NPCs cannot just look up in the sky and see where the PCs are traveling to.

Advanced Teleport: Can sometimes be used in a major offensive way (e.g. teleport a foe to the feywild and totally out of the encounter so that he cannot attack any PCs with any power and cannot take actions at all).


And the list of advantages for other movement types like Shifting is pretty darn small and limited compared to Teleport.

Player: "Woo hoo. I have an encounter multi-square shift power. Wait, you have a same level encounter teleport power? ".

When comparing the teleport effect to the shift effect, teleport is magnitudes better. Balance-wise and utility of effect, I don't think that you are looking at this anywhere near objectively.


Your entire argument seems to be that the more advance flight has this cool anti-melee thing that it can do, so obviously teleport sucks more than fly and hence is balanced at low level. Err, no. That's not reasonable logic.

Teleport is awesomely effective for a (typically) encounter power that PCs can get at first or second level, and has a lot more utility than short term flight or shifting or most other movement options.


Mostly mid-Paragon long term Daily flight should be compared to mostly mid-Paragon long range or stronger power Daily teleport. Comparing effects that mostly do not happen until mid-Paragon and are often Daily powers to early Heroic effects that are mostly Encounter (and sometimes At Will) powers is grossly misleading.

Totally apples and oranges. Longer duration much higher level flight should be better than short duration low level teleport. Your point???

Why don't you compare the two types of effects at the levels at which they are attained? Advanced forms of teleport usually kick butt on longer duration advanced forms of flight at similar levels, just like short term teleport kicks butt on short term flight at similar levels.

When I compare the 5th level Timeless Trek in Mithrendain to the 6th level Levitate, I laugh. Levitate is a joke compared to the Trek. Levitate might save the Wizard (it usually doesn't), but does little for the team other then them sometimes not having to assist the Wizard. The Trek has saved our party's bacon on a ton of occasions, all the way up to high Paragon level (where we stopped playing). It's huge compared to one PC floating in the air, even when it only works for a single round. When it works for multiple rounds, it just flat out saves a ton of party resources and turns losing battles into winning battles.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Totally apples and oranges. Longer duration much higher level flight should be better than short duration low level teleport. Your point???

Why don't you compare the two types of effects at the levels at which they are attained? Advanced forms of teleport usually kick butt on longer duration advanced forms of flight at similar levels, just like short term teleport kicks butt on short term flight at similar levels.

When I compare the 5th level Timeless Trek in Mithrendain to the 6th level Levitate, I laugh. Levitate is a joke compared to the Trek. Levitate might save the Wizard (it usually doesn't), but does little for the team other then them sometimes not having to assist the Wizard. The Trek has saved our party's bacon on a ton of occasions, all the way up to high Paragon level (where we stopped playing). It's huge compared to one PC floating in the air, even when it only works for a single round. When it works for multiple rounds, it just flat out saves a ton of party resources and turns losing battles into winning battles.

So your idea of a fair comparison is an attack daily vs a utility power? That isn't a reasonable comparison in my book.

How about we compare powers that are from the same level and power classification?

Let's look what happens when we compare utility vs utility. Dimensional Warp is a short-range reshuffle, whereas Sorcerous Sirocco allows for longer range repositioning or retreat options. They seem reasonably balanced to me. DW is better for clustered tactical repositioning, whereas SS is better for getting an ally to where he needs to be, overcoming obstacles, and avoiding traps.

What about attack powers then? Let's look at Transposing Lunge vs Thundering Gust. Those don't seem unreasonable either. Again, the teleport power is better at tactical repositioning, but the flying power wins out everywhere else (this one even renders the caster immune to melee attacks for a round).

If we compare apples to apples, I think we'll see that flight and teleport tend to be fairly balanced against each other. The only reason that flight seems weaker in 4e is because there are less flight powers than teleport powers, particularly in the category of attack powers.

 

[KarinsDad]

So your idea of a fair comparison is an attack daily vs a utility power? That isn't a reasonable comparison in my book.

At least it's not comparing a 16th level Daily with a 1st level Encounter.

How about we compare powers that are from the same level and power classification?

Ok.

Let's look what happens when we compare utility vs utility. Dimensional Warp is a short-range reshuffle, whereas Sorcerous Sirocco allows for longer range repositioning or retreat options. They seem reasonably balanced to me. DW is better for clustered tactical repositioning, whereas SS is better for getting an ally to where he needs to be, overcoming obstacles, and avoiding traps.

Not quite apples and apples here.

SS requires a Standard action whereas DW requires a Minor action.

Somebody in design thought "oh no, we can't have a second level Fly. Let's nerf it.".

Did you look at the action cost? Do they still seem balanced?

Yes, SS has a slight edge in functionality, but not to the point that it costs a Standard compared to a Minor.

But since these two powers don't do similar things and are not both just plain movement powers, the comparison isn't that good.

What about attack powers then? Let's look at Transposing Lunge vs Thundering Gust. Those don't seem unreasonable either. Again, the teleport power is better at tactical repositioning, but the flying power wins out everywhere else (this one even renders the caster immune to melee attacks for a round).

Err, what?

Why aren't you comparing area attack powers against area attack powers?

How about Otherwind Stride vs. Thundering Gust?

burst 1, vs. Fortitude, 1d8 + Charisma modifier damage, and the target is immobilized until the end of your next turn, you teleport 5 squares.

vs.

blast 3, vs. Fortitude, 1d10 + Charisma modifier thunder damage, and you slide the target a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier, or with storm magic, if you choose not to slide any targets, until the end of your next turn, you gain a fly speed equal to 1 + your Dexterity modifier, and you can hover.

So, some slid opponents vs. some immobilized opponents for 1+ turns.

Or, the ability to fly up this round (typically 3 to 5 squares) only if no opponents are next to you (or an OA) assuming that you hit and assuming that you have Storm magic. vs. some immobilized opponents.

The teleport. Automatic, whether you hit and whatever type of Cha Warlock you are.

It sure sounds like the Teleport power is more useful and powerful since it always works. And, it gives a free 5+ movement. The Fly power gives a Fly speed, so the user has to pay Move Actions to get that move.

The main up side for TG is that it does have the option of slide or fly (course, only for certain Sorcerers) and it might do a few extra points of damage. But sliding foes or doing nothing to them, compared to immobilizing them? Yeah, if they are standing next to a cliff, then I guess that sliding them might do something worthwhile.

When compared to a comparable area power, I'm not seeing where Thundering Gust wins out or even comes very close.

If we compare apples to apples, I think we'll see that flight and teleport tend to be fairly balanced against each other. The only reason that flight seems weaker in 4e is because there are less flight powers than teleport powers, particularly in the category of attack powers.

Balanced? Otherwind Stride has an extra move in it over Thundering Gust. It allows the Warlock to get out of grabs. The power isn't gimped if you are not the right type of Warlock. It doesn't provoke OAs with that move. The single teleport move distance of OS with Fey Pack is often similar in distance to using two Move Actions with TG and Storm Sorcerer (i.e. ~8 squares), but OS uses zero move actions and TG uses two to get that type of movement. OS immobilizes the foes vs. TG doing a little extra damage.

I'm not quite seeing how Otherwind Stride doesn't have a ton more utility than Thundering Gust for getting out of dodge, for moving a further distance, and for control. Prevent multiple foes from moving and possibly attacking any PCs for a round so that the PCs can focus fire on other foes compared to possibly having the Sorcerer out of harms way for a round?

TG might do a few extra points of damage against a few foes. Helpful, but nowhere near as potent as Immobilize.

Btw, I played a Sorcerer with TG and observed first hand the advantages and disadvantages of that power. It sometimes had to be combined with an Action point in order to not provoke an OA when one of the foes was standing right next to the PC. If the PC stands 10 feet away in order to make sure that the PC gets the non-OAed flight this round if it hits, the area is really only 2x3 then.

Out of curiosity, I went to the CharOp boards and checked out TG and OS. TG was purple (i.e. below average) and OS was considered black (i.e. average), but blue for a Feylock (i.e. above average) and sky blue (i.e. an optimal selection) when combined with a damaging zone like Hunger of Hadar.


The reason OS was designed with more umph than TG is because some designer thinks that Fly is super wonderful and Teleport isn't. So, teleport powers are stronger outside of the teleport effect itself. This can be seen in the Dimensional Warp vs. Sorcerous Sirocco example where the one power is a minor and the other is a standard.

Fly is considered by some designer(s) to be this uber effect, so they watered the other portions of the fly powers down.

As a DM, fly is a bit of a joke. I have dozens of ways of limiting it. Teleport? There's practically no way I can stop it (except by blinding or stunning the PC).

 

[Nahat Anoj]

From a game balance perspective, I personally don't think tactical teleport powers are any more overpowered than tactical flight powers. I've had an eladrin in a group teleporting around and a windsoul genasi hopping to and fro (played by the same player, incidentally) and neither mucked with combat too much. In the types of situations I place the PCs in, the advantages and disadvantages of either movement type more or less cancel each other out (you don't need line of sight to fly, you can teleport out of cages/restraints, etc.). In general, I feel the same way about strategic (ie, ritual) teleport and flight abilities, but I haven't pored through all the options.

But I do have to say that from the perspective of tone and setting implications I've never been really comfortable with racial teleports. My gut reaction is that teleporting is too over the top for a racial ability in D&D, even though I know in my brain that tactical teleport isn't all that powerful (not to mention that "over the top" is kinda meaningless in a game that let's you play a magic elf that can shoot fireballs from a stick!). But my brain can only hold out against my gut for so long. I don't mind tactical teleports coming from low level class abilities (like a Blink spell), or as a higher level racial option (racial paragon path or heroic theme utility).

Part of the problem of racial teleports is that every member of the race has it, and that has setting implications that work against the setting I want to play in. For better or worse, the basic kind of D&D game I want to play is basically a blend of Robert Howard and JRR Tolkien, Conan meets Frodo. Because that kind of setting is so ingrained in me as the "preferred" setting, I find I have a kneejerk reaction with setting elements that work against that - my sullen gut simply doesn't want to think about the various advantages an army of eladrin has because each soldier can teleport.

So to bring these rambling, stream of consciousness thoughts back to the thread topic, for 5e, from a tonal perspective I'd like to see a return to slightly more subdued options. What constitutes "subdued" is entirely up to personal preference and idiosyncracy, but for me it's things like no racial ability to teleport for eladrin (I think I might just roll eladrin back into elf), no dragon breath for dragonborn (I'd prefer that as a higher level option - yes, I know it's not all that great of a power ), no infernal wrath for tieflings (at least, not the fire damage - I could work with a fear effect or something like that), and so on. But, I admit, I'm very inconsistent here - I don't mind the darkness or faerie fire abilities for drow, for example. Ah well, what can I do.

 

[Fanaelialae]

At least it's not comparing a 16th level Daily with a 1st level Encounter.



Ok.



Not quite apples and apples here.

SS requires a Standard action whereas DW requires a Minor action.

Somebody in design thought "oh no, we can't have a second level Fly. Let's nerf it.".

Did you look at the action cost? Do they still seem balanced?

Yes, SS has a slight edge in functionality, but not to the point that it costs a Standard compared to a Minor.

But since these two powers don't do similar things and are not both just plain movement powers, the comparison isn't that good.



Err, what?

Why aren't you comparing area attack powers against area attack powers?

How about Otherwind Stride vs. Thundering Gust?

burst 1, vs. Fortitude, 1d8 + Charisma modifier damage, and the target is immobilized until the end of your next turn, you teleport 5 squares.

vs.

blast 3, vs. Fortitude, 1d10 + Charisma modifier thunder damage, and you slide the target a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier, or with storm magic, if you choose not to slide any targets, until the end of your next turn, you gain a fly speed equal to 1 + your Dexterity modifier, and you can hover.

So, some slid opponents vs. some immobilized opponents for 1+ turns.

Or, the ability to fly up this round (typically 3 to 5 squares) only if no opponents are next to you (or an OA) assuming that you hit and assuming that you have Storm magic. vs. some immobilized opponents.

The teleport. Automatic, whether you hit and whatever type of Cha Warlock you are.

It sure sounds like the Teleport power is more useful and powerful since it always works. And, it gives a free 5+ movement. The Fly power gives a Fly speed, so the user has to pay Move Actions to get that move.

The main up side for TG is that it does have the option of slide or fly (course, only for certain Sorcerers) and it might do a few extra points of damage. But sliding foes or doing nothing to them, compared to immobilizing them? Yeah, if they are standing next to a cliff, then I guess that sliding them might do something worthwhile.

When compared to a comparable area power, I'm not seeing where Thundering Gust wins out or even comes very close.



Balanced? Otherwind Stride has an extra move in it over Thundering Gust. It allows the Warlock to get out of grabs. The power isn't gimped if you are not the right type of Warlock. It doesn't provoke OAs with that move. The single teleport move distance of OS with Fey Pack is often similar in distance to using two Move Actions with TG and Storm Sorcerer (i.e. ~8 squares), but OS uses zero move actions and TG uses two to get that type of movement. OS immobilizes the foes vs. TG doing a little extra damage.

I'm not quite seeing how Otherwind Stride doesn't have a ton more utility than Thundering Gust for getting out of dodge, for moving a further distance, and for control. Prevent multiple foes from moving and possibly attacking any PCs for a round so that the PCs can focus fire on other foes compared to possibly having the Sorcerer out of harms way for a round?

TG might do a few extra points of damage against a few foes. Helpful, but nowhere near as potent as Immobilize.

Btw, I played a Sorcerer with TG and observed first hand the advantages and disadvantages of that power. It sometimes had to be combined with an Action point in order to not provoke an OA when one of the foes was standing right next to the PC. If the PC stands 10 feet away in order to make sure that the PC gets the non-OAed flight this round if it hits, the area is really only 2x3 then.

Out of curiosity, I went to the CharOp boards and checked out TG and OS. TG was purple (i.e. below average) and OS was considered black (i.e. average), but blue for a Feylock (i.e. above average) and sky blue (i.e. an optimal selection) when combined with a damaging zone like Hunger of Hadar.


The reason OS was designed with more umph than TG is because some designer thinks that Fly is super wonderful and Teleport isn't. So, teleport powers are stronger outside of the teleport effect itself. This can be seen in the Dimensional Warp vs. Sorcerous Sirocco example where the one power is a minor and the other is a standard.

Fly is considered by some designer(s) to be this uber effect, so they watered the other portions of the fly powers down.

As a DM, fly is a bit of a joke. I have dozens of ways of limiting it. Teleport? There's practically no way I can stop it (except by blinding or stunning the PC).

I disagree. SS is only balance because it costs a standard action. I've played a Storm Sorcerer too; I used it quite regularly, and to excellent effect.

Otherwind Stride and Thundering Gust are also, IMO, balanced. TG can either be used to slide enemies away from you so that you can walk away, or you can sacrifice a bit of the AoE in order to gain immunity to melee attacks for one round. OS, on the other hand, requires you to already be surrounded in order to maximize it's potential as an AoE, and is a short teleport. Odds are that any creatures you missed will just charge after you on their next turn. We may as well ignore the non-immunity to ranged attacks, because both powers share that. OP boards aside, they seem balanced to me. TG can make me immune to melee attacks no matter what. OS only makes me immune to the melee attacks of creatures it hits. I'll go so far as to say that not requiring an extra move action would make TG too good!

Sure, there are more ways to limit fly than teleport. However, flight gives me the ability to limit the ways the DM can limit my flight. If you can't reach me, you can't use your conditions on me. Teleport is harder to limit, but it's also much harder for me as a player to use teleport to prevent being hit in the first place. As a Swordmage, I loved teleporting; it made it effortless to reach the the targets I wanted to tank (or to drop my Aegis on one target, then tank another). However, I wouldn't have traded flight for teleport with my Sorcerer even if I had the option.

I suppose this may be one of those cases where we'll have to agree to disagree...

 

[KarinsDad]

Otherwind Stride and Thundering Gust are also, IMO, balanced. TG can either be used to slide enemies away from you so that you can walk away, or you can sacrifice a bit of the AoE in order to gain immunity to melee attacks for one round. OS, on the other hand, requires you to already be surrounded in order to maximize it's potential as an AoE, and is a short teleport. Odds are that any creatures you missed will just charge after you on their next turn. We may as well ignore the non-immunity to ranged attacks, because both powers share that. OP boards aside, they seem balanced to me. TG can make me immune to melee attacks no matter what. OS only makes me immune to the melee attacks of creatures it hits. I'll go so far as to say that not requiring an extra move action would make TG too good!

You might not be seeing all of the tactical possibilities here.

The 5 main different ways to gain the flight immunity with Thundering Gust are:

1) The Sorcerer moves up (or shifts) within 10 feet of foes, Blasts, then uses an Action Point to fly away. Disadvantage: the Sorcerer can only attack foes in a 2x3 and used up an action point to get the immunity. Assumption: the PC can move to a spot where the foes are all nicely arranged for a partial blast and allies are not.

2) The Sorcerer moves up (or shifts) within 5 feet of foes, Blasts, then uses an Action Point to fly away. Disadvantage: the Sorcerer probably gets OAed and used up an action point to get the immunity. Assumption: the PC can move to a spot where the foes are all nicely arranged for a blast and allies are not.

3) The Sorcerer is already within 10 feet of foes, Blasts, then uses a Move action to fly away. Disadvantage: the Sorcerer can only attack foes in a 2x3. Assumption: the odds of the situation being this perfect without allies being in the blast zone at the start of the PCs turn are extremely slim. The easiest way to accomplish this is to be 5 feet behind another melee PC who has an action shortly before the sorcerer's, the ally attacks and then shifts back next to the sorcerer. The sorcerer than blasts. Alternatively, if an allied PC whose turn is shortly before the sorcerer's uses a power to slide PCs and NPCs around, it can be arranged. But, it's typically not that easy to manage this type of group cooperation encounter in and encounter out, just because of how chaotic encounters tend to be.

4) The Sorcerer is already within 5 feet of foes, Blasts, then uses a Move action to fly away. Disadvantage: the Sorcerer probably gets OAed and again, the odds of the foes already being arranged well for this are slim. Better than in case #3 because NPCs might be 5 feet away attacking the sorcerer, but a situation where NPCs are in blast formation and other PCs are not and the Sorcerer doesn't have to move first is a bit rare.

5) The Sorcerer is already within 5 feet of foes, Blasts, uses a Move action to shift back one, and then uses an Action point to fly away. Disadvantage: the Sorcerer used up an action point to get the immunity and the odds of the situation being like this are identical to #4.

All in all, none of these 5 are that likely or appealing.

Granted, with the proper set of magic items, other powers or allied assistance, a Sorcerer might be able to pull this off a little easier. For example, Drow Sorcerers have an easier time because of Cloud of Darkness. But from actual game experience with TG, the melee immunity from the fly rarely happens in actual game play. The moon and stars are just not aligned well enough and often enough. A lot of times, the Sorcerer can only catch one foe in the blast to get the immunity, or the Sorcerer does the slide instead of the fly because the slide has a larger tactical advantage.

The slide aspect of this power is often more worthwhile and doable than the fly immunity aspect, so the very fact that the Sorcerer has a choice means that he'll be using the fly immunity less often by definition.

The fly immunity here is mostly illusory. With it being an encounter power, a storm sorcerer might be lucky to get the fly immunity once per adventuring day, a few more times if his PC allies go out of their way to help with it or he finds a racial or other trick. The immunity odds are slim or resource costly (like using an action point or risking an OA).


Let's look at the different ways to gain the immunity with Otherwind Stride are:

1) The Warlock moves up (or shifts) within 5 feet of foes, Bursts, teleports away. Disadvantage: if he doesn't hit, foes are not immobilized. Assumption: the PC can move to a spot where foes are in the burst radius and allies are not.

2) The Warlock is already within 5 feet of foes, Bursts, teleports away. Disadvantage: if he doesn't hit, foes are not immobilized. Assumption: the PC has foes and not allies around him. The likelihood of this is actually fairly high. Melee NPCs will sometimes move up and attack the warlock on their turns, so it's even expected that this situation will occur on occasion.

So, the warlock has two basic ways in which this can occur, and one of them is fairly likely. The warlock typically gains concealment from Shadow Walk when using this power and can often teleport behind other PCs to make it harder for the NPCs to still attack him. If he hits any NPC, that NPC is immobilized and not only does the Warlock get melee immunity from that NPC, so can all of the other PCs. Even a Defender fighting an immobilized NPC can typically shift away and attack/charge a different NPC.

And the Warlock never has to use an action point and/or provoke an OA to pull this off.

And just like the Drow Sorcerer can use Cloud of Darkness to help out, an Elven Warlock can use Elven Accuracy to help out. In other words, yes, there are ways to improve the odds for the Sorcerer, but there are also ways to improve the odds for the Warlock as well. That's pretty much a wash.

Tactically speaking, the melee immunity from OS is hands down better and easier to achieve than TG because the Sorcerer typically has to have just the proper set of somewhat rare circumstances to pull off the TG immunity. The situation for the Warlock comes to him because melee NPCs will come up and attack him from time to time. He doesn't always have to set it up. The DM will set it up for him. And the type of foes who come up to him and attack him tend to be melee foes: the perfect type of foes to immobilize. And the Warlock immunity often helps out the entire party, not just the Warlock. Even a single immobilized foe is a foe that might not attack anyone else for the next round.

Sure, the Sorcerer might be safe in the sky, but the attacked NPCs that s/he left behind still can attack with any of their attack abilities. If NPCs are attacking a Sorcerer with melee attacks, they have already gotten behind the front PC line. The NPCs attack and knock out the party Leader instead of attacking the Sorcerer. Opps.

And this does not even take into account the other advantages that teleport has over fly that I mentioned up thread. For example, a grabbed Sorcerer pretty much needs to use the slide aspect of this power and cannot gain the immunity. A grabbed Warlock just uses the power.

And sorry, but slide is nowhere near as potent as immobilization unless you can slide the foe off a cliff or into hindering terrain. Yes, those situations do occur, but the immobilization is just that much stronger than slide as a general rule. Slide rarely prevents foes from taking actions or forces them to use sub-par ranged attacks.


In fact, one of the enjoyable things that evil DMs can do is have monsters immobilize melee PCs and then shift back. It's a hoot and you'd be surprised at how quickly a player will have his melee PC go acquire a ranged attack somehow after that happens a few times.

I suppose this may be one of those cases where we'll have to agree to disagree...

Probably. I do know which of these two powers that I can take better tactical advantage of as a player. They are not even close to being even.

Course, I can easily find a lot of difference in utility and power between two same level powers for the same class, let alone different classes. I sometimes wonder about D&D power designers. They don't seem to understand the concept of balance because there are many powers for many classes at many levels where there's only a few really good powers and a lot of pretty darn mediocre or lame powers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'd bring back the skills craft, perform and handle animal/ride...maybe profession as well. And 10' poles & mules.

 

[Minigiant]

Well one thing I recently noticed that I'd like to see is multiple ability score importance. Dump stats and off abilities should mean something. Not so much that they cause dependency but noticeable somehow.

For example, melee and non magically aim ranged spells could return on arcane spells with slightly higher than normal damage and effect curves. Wizards, sorceries, and warlock could switch their usually secondary ability for Str or Dex to get a decent chance of these spells hitting.


Every ability does not have to be supported as a separate build though.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION]

I think the problem here is one of not really having the same argument. You say I'm comparing higher level with lower level powers. YES, so what? We're not comparing levels of powers. The REASON the fly powers are higher level is because they are potentially so good!

The issue is this: a tactiport makes some instantaneous change to the tactical situation, once it happens that's it. We all agree it is useful, but there are few situations where it will make a huge difference. Someone dodges being OAed to get to a spot, maybe reaches some hard to reach spot if it is close enough, or escapes some grab type situation without needing to make a check, etc. You can't lard in other types of things and call them advantages of tactiport, like teleporting enemies (which itself is mostly a paragon tier capability anyway) etc because those are 'other' effects of a power that just happen to be formulated in terms of teleportation. What we're discussing is tactical use of teleport itself vs tactical use of flight.

Flight OTOH has the potential to largely negate many encounters, bypass significant obstacles, etc in ways that tactiport simply won't. Tactiport's ability to do this is MUCH MORE LIMITED. Yes, flight can potentially be impossible or not useful in some situations, and once in a while it can be countered. AGAIN there's a good reason for that, it gives the DM a way to present challenges even to groups that CAN fly, which they utterly need!

Lets put it this way, is there ANYTHING in the game that negates a character's ability to tactiport? No, there isn't (beyond just general ways you can block LoS for instance that are generic and not specifically tactiport negating). OTOH look at how many flight negating abilities PCs can get. Look at how many ways the DM can limit flight. This is because the option NEEDS to exist. Flight is potentially encounter breaking, and OFTEN it is ACTUALLY encounter breaking. This is why it is higher level than tactiport, pure and simple.

You can argue this until you're blue in the face. It isn't going to change the facts. True flight beats the pants off tactiport overall. It just does. Thus it is a paragon option, because by paragon monsters are much more capable of countering it and thus the DM has the options he needs to be able to work with to do that when needed. Tactiport OTOH is nice, and CERTAINLY advantageous to have, nobody is saying it isn't. It simply doesn't invalidate the entire basic set of assumptions that make an encounter a challenge. This is a fundamental difference. Immunity from all effective attack from advanced flight can make you IMMUNE to retaliation for a whole encounter, completely. Tactiport can get you past a few OAs, that's about it. Most of its other benefits you cite are benefits of MOVING and apply to ANY mode of movement.

As for the 'flavor' argument and the 'world setting implications' arguments. There's really not a lot that can be said one way or another about these. What would be the tactical and strategic implications of an army that could all fly? I'll tell you, it would be VASTLY more significant than that they could teleport 30' once a fight! Lets suppose Eladrin could fly. Imagine a friggin flying army of Eladrin! Oh, you have castle walls you silly boy! Oh, you want to guard the pass we can just fly over, silly boy! Oh, you got the tactical jump on us, we'll follow this! There is simply no contest there. The implications of advanced flying races on military tactics and strategy is orders of magnitude greater than that of some piddly ranged teleport (which itself isn't non-existent certainly, but it IS limited to one little tactical instant in time).

The flavor thing... Well, there's just no real way to say anything about that except people's tastes will differ. Sure, tactiport is non-traditional for D&D, and doesn't really show up in traditional sources. I can certainly understand the argument that says "well, I want to play LotR and tactiport just makes that silly" but there are 1000 other ways that it is already made silly because D&D simply doesn't follow the conventions of ANY one mythology or literature. Conanesque S&S likewise isn't a lot like what you get in D&D. Note that both sub-genre CAN be better modeled by D&D to some extent, but you need to customize the game, and at that point you are free to eliminate whatever you need to eliminate, it will always be SOMETHING, and I'd venture to say that advanced flight would be right out in most cases too.

The argument that all races should be nerfed back to being nothing but humans with funny eyebrows and glandular problems is just silly to me. Honestly, keep following that line of logic down the line and you have an argument for removing almost everything from the game and reducing it to a medieval version of The Sims. The game is about the fantastic and part of the draw of that is fantastical races. I find the 4e races with their distinct capabilities and more clearly distinguished from human style to be a nice feature of 4e. I don't want it to go away for any reason whatsoever, and certainly not the dubious reasoning that anything beyond human capabilities isn't believable enough or makes the DM THINK about its implications for the world.

Honestly, if you don't like the way Eladrin teleport wanks with your world building, then get rid of it. Use elves in their place, or make up a variant race, etc. Turning the whole game system into bland pudding isn't the correct answer IMHO.