D&D (2024) What older setting do you want to see next?

Which older D&D setting would you like to see next?

  • Greyhawk

    Votes: 33 26.2%
  • Mystara

    Votes: 11 8.7%
  • Birthright

    Votes: 12 9.5%
  • Council of Wyrms

    Votes: 3 2.4%
  • Ghostwalk

    Votes: 4 3.2%
  • Nentir Vale/Nerath/Points of Light

    Votes: 25 19.8%
  • Other (please specify in post)

    Votes: 11 8.7%
  • Dark Sun

    Votes: 27 21.4%

  • Poll closed .

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Maybe, but speaking personally, I am older (59 and playing since 1976), keen to see Greyhawk revived for 2024 and TOTALLY happy to see as many pebbles moved as are necessary to meet modern standards of decency and inclusivity as necessary.
If nothing else, it'd be nice to see them give it to the Adventurers League, similar to the Living Greyhawk era, and let them publish new material under that umbrella on DMs Guild. They could give them a bit more restrictive guide rails and maybe have an in-house WotC Greyhawk guru have to sign off on a setting bible before it got going.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Patrick Lewis1

Explorer
You are going to be very upset when you Google how people view it in 2022.
I wont let it upset me.

It's a 34 year old supplement that I first picked up when I was nine( I'm a grey as the Mr Snow picture lol). I I like it because of the fun games i had playing with it. Because at 9/10 years olf it suited my infantile sense of humour.

And its okay for folk to not like it. Its almost as if Kitsch stuff like it( And it was already kitsch when it first came out) is taken seriously now. A histoical historicism or whig History as we used to call it is nothing new. People have always been morally critical of the past, they have been for millenia.

I'm a happily married man in my 40s with kids and good job who occasionally plays lets pretend with dice. Someone not liking an element of my childhood memory is no reason to be cross or upset.

I think there are real questions about how we can maintain a moral art code for gaming when the games themselves are often fantasies of violence and theft victimising Goblins etc. Personally I think you have to talk about it, in the Pratchett fashion to deconstruct problematic tropes wtih comedic fantasy.

But if folks disagree I still have my books and memories and I'll play in a different way. I'm open to changes in discourse, its fun to see things in new ways.
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I don't think those are proof of anything. The original creator of Dark Sun hypothetizes that WotC wouldn't touch the setting for X, Y and Z reasons, but doesn't know, and WotC wouldn't say. (Compare to all the people who say Movie X "could never be made today," ignoring how many movies of that type are still being made.)
You previously stated that you thought people were saying that "even the mention of the topic will be deemed offensive, even when in a negative light" without it actually occuring (where "the topic" is shorthand for things like "slavery or genocide or fascism or religious fanaticism"), to the point of it being disingenuous.

I'm pointing out that this does in fact occur, and pointing that out is in no way disingenuous.

For instance, Timothy Brown stated in the first link that:

"The old saying is there's no such thing as bad publicity," he says. "Well, there is bad publicity today, and that would be bad publicity. I think, for the most part, you'd spend all your time apologizing and complaining and not making the game. It'd be very difficult. Very difficult."

...which is an understandable sentiment, given that the author of the article apparently feels no compunctions about generalizing how:

Slavery is commonplace on Athas and, though it is not race-based, some TTRPG players feel that such an abhorrent practice has no place in the hobby.

So the premise that some people want it out of the hobby entirely, regardless of context, seems pretty well established.

Follow that up with the second link, which opens with a note saying:

When it was originally published, this article did not acknowledge the elements of bioessentialism and racism present in both the original Dark Sun and Red Dawn, notably the setting’s handling of slavery. Dicebreaker absolutely does not support these views or any product that embodies them. We’re sorry for any harm caused by this article, and will address any such problematic elements in any future coverage.

Given that this seems to operate from a premise that the mere presence of bioessentialism and racism are things that need to be apologized for, in that not acknowledging their presence (even if presented as something bad, as they were in Dark Sun) causes harm. So that seems to support the idea that their inclusion is harmful in-and-of itself.

The third link isn't something that can be dismissed either, as the anonymous letter received a personal response from Erik Mona, which suggests that he agrees with the idea that even mentioning slavery in the context of it having been declared illegal and only being something that bad guys do is not acceptable:

Then there’s Erik Mona and Absalom. There are 126 references to slaves and slavery in the 402 pages of Absalom. Some of them are just recounting history. Some of them are references to abolition and aiding free people. Several of them are graphic descriptions of “illegal” slavery, human trafficking, prison abuse, organized crime and all the various ways that Absalom tries to have it both ways. What a [expletive deleted] slap in the face.

So even when it's presented as an inherently bad thing, it's unacceptable.

Given that, it seems like we can safely dispel the notion that there's a contingent of gamers who want these offensive topics removed from the gaming scene entirely, even when they're unambiguously presented as bad things. To say that this sentiment doesn't exist, and doesn't have traction (e.g. Paizo's acquiescence to that open letter), can therefore be dismissed as an argument.
 

Patrick Lewis1

Explorer
You previously stated that you thought people were saying that "even the mention of the topic will be deemed offensive, even when in a negative light" without it actually occuring (where "the topic" is shorthand for things like "slavery or genocide or fascism or religious fanaticism"), to the point of it being disingenuous.

I'm pointing out that this does in fact occur, and pointing that out is in no way disingenuous.

For instance, Timothy Brown stated in the first link that:



...which is an understandable sentiment, given that the author of the article apparently feels no compunctions about generalizing how:



So the premise that some people want it out of the hobby entirely, regardless of context, seems pretty well established.

Follow that up with the second link, which opens with a note saying:



Given that this seems to operate from a premise that the mere presence of bioessentialism and racism are things that need to be apologized for, in that not acknowledging their presence (even if presented as something bad, as they were in Dark Sun) causes harm. So that seems to support the idea that their inclusion is harmful in-and-of itself.

The third link isn't something that can be dismissed either, as the anonymous letter received a personal response from Erik Mona, which suggests that he agrees with the idea that even mentioning slavery in the context of it having been declared illegal and only being something that bad guys do is not acceptable:



So even when it's presented as an inherently bad thing, it's unacceptable.

Given that, it seems like we can safely dispel the notion that there's a contingent of gamers who want these offensive topics removed from the gaming scene entirely, even when they're unambiguously presented as bad things. To say that this sentiment doesn't exist, and doesn't have traction (e.g. Paizo's acquiescence to that open letter), can therefore be dismissed as an argument.
Context here is key. I think its okay for WOTC to remove the most promblematic elements and tropes from any of their settings. They and Hasbro want D&D to grow, and principally this growth to come from young adults. Lets have the first steps into the hobby be comfortable for kids growing up with very different social expectations than grognards like myself. Get 'em playing in welcoming fun settings. Theres plenty of time for the grimm dark later. And remember that the latest interpretation of a setting is just that. Fashions change. Wait long enough and it'll come back into fashion. But a hobby needs new people to live long enough to cycle....so let WOTC do what they think will grow our hobby and welcome your new soon to be gaming mates.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Context here is key.
I want to point out that I'm not advocating for anything in particular; I'm simply dispelling the notion that it's "disingenuous" to point out that there's a segment of gamers who don't want to see offensive content present in RPGs in any context. That sentiment is not a strawman, nor can it be dismissed as a fringe idea that no one takes seriously (as per Paizo's response), and should therefore be acknowledged when the topic is broached.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
yes although i would suggest it needs the context of non Magocracies around it to really work.
I don't know. The fact that it's different from its neighbors -- and deeply threatening to them, because the country is basically a bunch of living atomic bombs who can't get along with one another -- is probably fine.

HOT TAKE: If you say that Glantri existed in the First World and that the version on Mystara is just the best-known echo of it, you can make it a standalone thing with the Mystaran elements* sanded down pretty easily. Every fantasy world needs a canal city full of scheming wizards.

* Mysterious magical power sources are a dime a dozen in D&D worlds. Glantri doesn't need the Radiance to work.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
So even when it's presented as an inherently bad thing, it's unacceptable.
Which one of those links are meant to be representative of society as a whole? There is some Stretch Armstrong level stretching going here.

If you don't want Dark Sun to come back, that's cool. (I honestly have no dog in this fight, beyond sticking up for logic and reason.) But there's no obstacle to bringing it back, especially since WotC has shown no hesitation about changing things they feel ought to be changed. But "oh no, the bad guys are demonstrably bad by their actions, not their ethnicity," is not a compelling argument.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
nor can it be dismissed as a fringe idea that no one takes seriously (as per Paizo's response), and should therefore be acknowledged when the topic is broached.
Unless they publish stats or, better yet, data from a rigorous survey, there's no way to determine whether it's a fringe belief or not.

The fact that WotC, which does survey its audience, arguably to excess, thinks that there is an audience for Dark Sun -- they keep asking about it and they published psionic rules in late 2020 -- suggests that the audience isn't large enough to be an issue for them.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Which one of those links are meant to be representative of society as a whole?
This is a strawman; it was never put forward that they represent "society as a whole," just that the sentiment cannot be dismissed as something "disingenuous" when it's acknowledged.
If you don't want Dark Sun to come back, that's cool. (I honestly have no dog in this fight, beyond sticking up for logic and reason.) But there's no obstacle to bringing it back, especially since WotC has shown no hesitation about changing things they feel ought to be changed. But "oh no, the bad guys are demonstrably bad by their actions, not their ethnicity," is not a compelling argument.
If you want to stick up for logic and reason, then I recommend not trying to dismiss a viewpoint whose existence is not only unsubtle but has already demonstrated its acknowledgment in the industry as "disingenuous."
 

Remove ads

Top