What Races Do You Allow?

[Dandu]

Having access to the ability itself is key. Hands down, it would cut into your immediate actions. However, there aren't many immediate actions that could be as likely to DEFINITELY save your bacon like that would.

Take a look at Anticipatory Strike and get back to me.

Look, the ability to mitigate damage is useful, but it's pretty cost ineffective and you're basically burning through a large amount of your resource pool to avoid damage. Using them constantly results in a character who is hard to kill, but loses his ability to contribute.

If you KNOW you're going to take that damage, it'll keep you topside. Few and far between are the racial abilities that can duplicate that.

I agree, few racial abilities offer that exact feature, but that does not make the Elans abilities more powerful, just different. Humans bonus feat and skill points are pretty powerful in and of itself if you choose the right feats. Elans get a tactical advantage vs, say, a human's strategic advantage.

There's a nice thread that originally showed up on the d20 Character Optimization forums called Myth: 3.5 Psionics Is Overpowered. Elans are specifically addressed on #21. Note that a lot of very well known optimizers such as Khan the Destroyer (the man who created Pun Pun) agree with the points raised in the post.

 

[Visigani]

Take a look at Anticipatory Strike and get back to me.

Look, the ability to mitigate damage is useful, but it's pretty cost ineffective and you're basically burning through a large amount of your resource pool to avoid damage. Using them constantly results in a character who is hard to kill, but loses his ability to contribute.

I agree, few racial abilities offer that exact feature, but that does not make the Elans abilities more powerful, just different. Humans bonus feat and skill points are pretty powerful in and of itself if you choose the right feats. Elans get a tactical advantage vs, say, a human's strategic advantage.

There's a nice thread that originally showed up on the d20 Character Optimization forums called Myth: 3.5 Psionics Is Overpowered. Elans are specifically addressed on #21. Note that a lot of very well known optimizers such as Khan the Destroyer (the man who created Pun Pun) agree with the points raised in the post.

What's the maximum amount an Elan could spend to negate damage (from a single attack)?

 

[Dandu]

Presumably, as much as he has available.

 

[Visigani]

Take a look at Anticipatory Strike and get back to me.

Look, the ability to mitigate damage is useful, but it's pretty cost ineffective and you're basically burning through a large amount of your resource pool to avoid damage. Using them constantly results in a character who is hard to kill, but loses his ability to contribute.

I agree, few racial abilities offer that exact feature, but that does not make the Elans abilities more powerful, just different. Humans bonus feat and skill points are pretty powerful in and of itself if you choose the right feats. Elans get a tactical advantage vs, say, a human's strategic advantage.

There's a nice thread that originally showed up on the d20 Character Optimization forums called Myth: 3.5 Psionics Is Overpowered. Elans are specifically addressed on #21. Note that a lot of very well known optimizers such as Khan the Destroyer (the man who created Pun Pun) agree with the points raised in the post.

Presumably, as much as he has available. How much he has available depends on his class. The logical conclusion is not that Elans are overpowered per se, but that certain race/class combinations are overpowered.

And that's the slipup. Because once you get to significantly high levels an Elan could entirely negate a massive alpha strike... especially once you hit epic levels and the elan invests in bonus power points.. he could negate damage into the hundreds or thousands.

The only racial ability I can think of that would entirely negate the full effects of the 60d12 of a force dragons breath weapon is... The Elan's. And vigor wouldn't do diddly.

This is what I mean by "scales with level". The Halfling is ideally paired with the Rogue...but the halflings racial abilities don't get significantly better as he levels. The Elan's does.


To put it in perspective, a level 15 Elan with enhanced resilience could withstand the MAXMIMIZED breath weapon of a CR 59 Epic Force Dragon.

Granted, they couldn't be able to withstand much else but all you crazy kids forgot to take into account what makes Resilience superior to Vigor in one important way.. it's not tied to Manifester Level.

This means the greater the pool of power points, the more significant damage you can deflect.

This means, for example, critical hits become less of an issue. Power failure from damage becomes less of an issue, etc etc.

 

[Dandu]

The logical conclusion is not that Elans are overpowered per se, but that certain race/class combinations are overpowered. (Assuming that it's overpowered.)

Otherwise it would be like concluding that Humans are overpowered because they can get into Red Wizard of Thay, the prestige class specifically for Thayan Humans that can give you a CL of 40 at level 15.

You keep going on and on about the Elan's ability to negate massive alpha strikes. However, at high levels, you get a lot of useful powers that run off of swift and immediate actions, which you are trading for the damage negation. Wouldn't you say that makes it more balanced?

Yeah, a level 15 Elan psion could negate 720 points worth of damage... which uses up most of his resources. 360 power points if I'm not mistaken, which is all you get from your class levels. That leaves about a hundred or so PP from class levels. Bravo, you're now low on power points in the face of a CR 59 monster whose breath weapon will soon recharge.

You would have been better off casting Temporal Acceleration and using it to establish a tactual advantage.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

It's not... what? Borked?


If you can find me another racial ability that can grant what amounts to vast sums of damage resistance to virtually any type of damage (or the equivalent) on a LA 0 creature... I'm all ears.

Elan only get it with classes with tons of Power Points, so it's not the race itself. Any other race can do this with class abilities. Anyone who's a level 11 Factotum can do more. An Elan who's any class but Psion, Psychic Warrior, Lurker, and the like, can only heal 4 hit points a day. Anyone else who's a Psion, Psychic Warrior, Lurker, etc, can do similar things with Powers anyway to reduce or avoid damage. While we're discussing abilities, I've seen a player make liberal, effective use of the Gnome's "Speak with Burrowing animals" ability once each day. I've seen Shifters do amazing things with shifting abilities a lot more useful than an Alan's limited DR.

Oh, and they get elvish trance.

Warforged don't ever need to sleep.

And they're abberations.

Warforged are constructs (Living yes, but still tons of immunities).

And they're immortal (never take age penalties).

Neither do Warforged.

Nor do they need to eat or drink.

Neither do Warforged. without expending any Power Points.

And they take a -2 penalty to a dump stat for psions.

Warforged get a +2 Con, and a -2 to Wis and -2 Cha, which balances out to a -2 loss, in what's likely a dump stat depending on class played.

And Warforged get a +2 AC, and are immune to: Poison, Sleep Effects, Paralysis, Disease, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Sickened condition and Energy Drain.

And a Slam attack.

All for a 0 LA.

Warforged also qualify for Warforged-only PrC's that make them pretty Bad Ass.

And a Psyforged makes a better Psion than an Elan, IMHO.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

To respond to the OP's question, I permit any 0 LA race, as long as the player has a reasonable backstory, and +1 LA race and/or template combos with some discussion first.

Not all races get responded to the same by NPC's. It depends on the location they are passing through. It depends on how much RPing of NPC's I feel I can get away with and still maintain the balance between fun and challenge.

 

[Visigani]

Elan only get it with classes with tons of Power Points, so it's not the race itself. Any other race can do this with class abilities. Anyone who's a level 11 Factotum can do more. An Elan who's any class but Psion, Psychic Warrior, Lurker, and the like, can only heal 4 hit points a day. Anyone else who's a Psion, Psychic Warrior, Lurker, etc, can do similar things with Powers anyway to reduce or avoid damage. While we're discussing abilities, I've seen a player make liberal, effective use of the Gnome's "Speak with Burrowing animals" ability once each day. I've seen Shifters do amazing things with shifting abilities a lot more useful than an Alan's limited DR.



Warforged don't ever need to sleep.


Warforged are constructs (Living yes, but still tons of immunities).


Neither do Warforged.


Neither do Warforged. without expending any Power Points.


Warforged get a +2 Con, and a -2 to Wis and -2 Cha, which balances out to a -2 loss, in what's likely a dump stat depending on class played.

And Warforged get a +2 AC, and are immune to: Poison, Sleep Effects, Paralysis, Disease, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Sickened condition and Energy Drain.

And a Slam attack.

All for a 0 LA.

Warforged also qualify for Warforged-only PrC's that make them pretty Bad Ass.

And a Psyforged makes a better Psion than an Elan, IMHO.

Warforged also recieve only half benefit from healing, and you're not familiar with elvish trance it appears.

An Elan only needs 4 hours of rest to simulate the 8 hours other races need. Other races like Warforged. Further, Warforged have a variety of other weaknesses (such as against rust monster attacks).

You're welcome to try again.

 

[Visigani]

The logical conclusion is not that Elans are overpowered per se, but that certain race/class combinations are overpowered. (Assuming that it's overpowered.)

Otherwise it would be like concluding that Humans are overpowered because they can get into Red Wizard of Thay, the prestige class specifically for Thayan Humans that can give you a CL of 40 at level 15.

You keep going on and on about the Elan's ability to negate massive alpha strikes. However, at high levels, you get a lot of useful powers that run off of swift and immediate actions, which you are trading for the damage negation. Wouldn't you say that makes it more balanced?

Yeah, a level 15 Elan psion could negate 720 points worth of damage... which uses up most of his resources. 360 power points if I'm not mistaken, which is all you get from your class levels. That leaves about a hundred or so PP from class levels. Bravo, you're now low on power points in the face of a CR 59 monster whose breath weapon will soon recharge.

You would have been better off casting Temporal Acceleration and using it to establish a tactual advantage.

As you completely dodge the fact that NO OTHER RACIAL ABILITY could completely negate that degree of what would otherwise be fatal damage.

And I'd like to note that you are now comparing a racial ability to a lvl 6 power (that in no way shape or form guarantees survival mind you).



Further, considering your human analogy... about races+classes = overpowered. If you exchanged the requirement for red Wizard to halfling there would not be a significant difference in power at level 20, and even less so once you approached epic levels. Simply "being", and having that race as a requirement for a potent prestige class does not make the race itself super powered or broken. If this were true, everyone would be rolling kobolds all day every day. They're not.

Conversely, an Elan Psy Warrior would have a significant advantage over a human Psy Warrior.

Is the Elan ability restricted to psionics? Certainly. Just as the Gnomish +1 dc to illusion is restricted to magic. This does not negate the fact that it's a potent racial ability.

 

[Dandu]

As you completely dodge the fact that NO OTHER RACIAL ABILITY could completely negate that degree of what would otherwise be fatal damage.

1. The racial ability ONLY WORKS that way if you take levels in a manifesting class, at which point
2. At higher levels, there will be better uses of immediate actions and at lower levels, you don't have enough PP to spare for it constantly.

This is what I believe balances it out, its limited utility and cost.

Hey, while we're on this... why is it that people who powergame are in the same camp as me? I mean, surely if the Elan has an OMGWTFBBQ overpowered ability, we'd know about it and be exploiting it for great justice? I've talked to a lot of optimizers and the general feeling is that the damage mitigation isn't overpowered.

Oh look, another thread about how Elans aren't overpowered. And another.

Actually, the Elan does have a very powerful racial feature, one that is exploited by the King of Smack in order to deal an ungodly large amount of unarmed damage... but that feature is the fact that it's an aberration and can take certain monster feats and gain access to special forms with Metamorphosis.

Of course. The two keys to this build are 1) the warshaper PrC and 2) the awesome Rapidstrike feat from Draconomicon. To my knowledge, nobody has attempted to use either of these in a fighting psywar build. Warshaper requires your DM to allow metamorphosis to count for the polymorph requirement of Warshaper, which I think is reasonable. Rapidstrike is normally unavailable to normal characters, but CREATURES OF THE ABERRATION TYPE CAN TAKE IT. (omg) You see, now, why the type-aberration Elan is undercosted at LA+0?

And I'd like to note that you are now comparing a racial ability to a lvl 6 power (that in no way shape or form guarantees survival mind you).

The Elan's racial ability doesn't guarantee survival either. I think that facing down a CR 59 monster with a hundred and ten power points is not very good for survival. At least Temporal Acceleration allows you to GTFO and save over three hundred power points.

Further, considering your human analogy... about races+classes = overpowered. If you exchanged the requirement for red Wizard to halfling there would not be a significant difference in power at level 20, and even less so once you approached epic levels. Simply "being", and having that race as a requirement for a potent prestige class does not make the race itself super powered or broken. If this were true, everyone would be rolling kobolds all day every day. They're not.

Conversely, an Elan Psy Warrior would have a significant advantage over a human Psy Warrior.

I would like to test this assumption. I've already got a 7th level Dwarf Psywar floating around, let's see how these two LA +0 races compare in actual combats. It shouldn't be to hard to make the Elan version, just lower the Con by 2 points and substitute the racial abilities. Perhaps we could compare how the two builds would do in a variety of combat situations, or against each other?

Is the Elan ability restricted to psionics? Certainly. Just as the Gnomish +1 dc to illusion is restricted to magic. This does not negate the fact that it's a potent racial ability.

I have never said that it was not potent, I have said that it is not broken. There is a difference.