D&D 5E What Rules do you see people mistake or misapply?

[Caliban]

Ohh, what's going to really bake your noodle later on is when you realize 'object' and 'creature' are entirely subjective quantities in the game rules, defined largely in a narrative sense, that nevertheless have pretty explicit rules built on the distinction between the two.

For fun, animate an object (via the Animate Objects spell). It is now a creature - "Each target animates and becomes a creature under your control until the spell ends or until reduced to 0 hit points.".

Have someone cast Invisibility on it, then stop concentrating on the Animate Objects spell. It's no longer a creature and is now an object again.

Is it still invisible?

DM's love it when you do stuff like that just to annoy them.

 

[Oofta]

The rule that says you must use the hide rule to be detected is with the rule that says you must use athletics to climb a cliff [assuming no Climb speed since that is a rule that can be referenced].

You give a proof that is no proof. It is a psychological game people use when they don't have any real proof of their own stand by trying to make them prove something they don't have to. A person can completely ignore your "argument" and still be running the GAW/RAW. Now if you ever wish to make a real argument with actual written reference go ahead. Otherwise, go ahead and keep your $50, it is a fools bet and means very little.

There is no rule that says you have to use the athletics check to ascend a cliff. There could be a ladder. Or stairs. Or an elevator. Or a gnomish throwing device. Any number of ways to ascend a cliff, even if some are safer than others.

It's the same with stealth. No rule says you have to take the hide action and roll a stealth check to avoid detection (in or out of combat). Hiding is one enumerated way to avoid detection. If you rule that you have to even when there is no possible way to detect the invisible/flying/silenced creature that is not interacting with the environment in any discernable way, feel free.

Maybe it's a fools bet. Or maybe it's just that the rules don't say what you keep insisting they say.

 

[Pathkeeper24601]

There is no rule that says you have to use the athletics check to ascend a cliff. There could be a ladder. Or stairs. Or an elevator. Or a gnomish throwing device. Any number of ways to ascend a cliff, even if some are safer than others.

It's the same with stealth. No rule says you have to take the hide action and roll a stealth check to avoid detection (in or out of combat). Hiding is one enumerated way to avoid detection. If you rule that you have to even when there is no possible way to detect the invisible/flying/silenced creature that is not interacting with the environment in any discernable way, feel free.

Maybe it's a fools bet. Or maybe it's just that the rules don't say what you keep insisting they say.

I'm sorry, but I think I am the one that keeps quoting rules. I have yet to see you reference one.

Probably the best way to put it is that the primary way to become unnoticed is the Hide check even when invisible. This is what the DM has to rule against when allowing a creature to become unnoticed any other way. This is what the player can expect to work 100% of the time. The DM and players and follow those written rules with perfect confidence. I think somewhere the original poster says he is looking for consistent rules for multiple tables in an AL type setting. Ruling the Invisible condition as it is in the book satisfies this condition. That a DM can rule otherwise is about exceptions, not the rule.

 

[guachi]

While 5E doesn't explicitly state some of this (that I know of)

• There is one turn for each individual in the combat, although DMs sometimes combine NPCs for simplicity.
• A round of combat can be the combat round which goes from the start of the first creatures initiative to the next time their initiative comes up.
• A creature's round goes from the start of their turn to the start of the next turn.

The only place I'm aware of that describes the round is in the combat section where combat (and, therefore, the round) starts with the highest initiative and ends when every combatant has taken a turn. This is, of course, modified by specific rules that might allow a creature two turns in a round.

This equals your points one and two. I am not aware of anything in the rules that describes a creature's round as you've laid out in point three. As far as I've read, there is no such thing as a "creature's round". Effects are always described as lasting until the start/end of a creatures next turn. I've never read an effect that lasts a certain number of rounds.

 

[Pathkeeper24601]

The only place I'm aware of that describes the round is in the combat section where combat (and, therefore, the round) starts with the highest initiative and ends when every combatant has taken a turn. This is, of course, modified by specific rules that might allow a creature two turns in a round.

This equals your points one and two. I am not aware of anything in the rules that describes a creature's round as you've laid out in point three. As far as I've read, there is no such thing as a "creature's round". Effects are always described as lasting until the start/end of a creatures next turn. I've never read an effect that lasts a certain number of rounds.

The third point comes from round being defined as a generic 6 second time frame. Usually used in the context of spell durations or other effects, though you may be right that nothing actually references this specific wording. I like to think of as Round that is top of initiative to bottom vs. [player/effect] round which is from position in initiative of player/effect to next instance of that initiative. Usually, this is used by those who played older editions and should just be understood in the context it is being used.

 

[Hussar]

There is no rule that says you have to use the athletics check to ascend a cliff. There could be a ladder. Or stairs. Or an elevator. Or a gnomish throwing device. Any number of ways to ascend a cliff, even if some are safer than others.

It's the same with stealth. No rule says you have to take the hide action and roll a stealth check to avoid detection (in or out of combat). Hiding is one enumerated way to avoid detection. If you rule that you have to even when there is no possible way to detect the invisible/flying/silenced creature that is not interacting with the environment in any discernable way, feel free.

Maybe it's a fools bet. Or maybe it's just that the rules don't say what you keep insisting they say.

Funny thing is though, ladders, stairs and various other ways of going from the bottom of a cliff to the top ARE enumerated. Namely under the DC descriptions in the DMG and under various other places in the PHB.

But, the only way to be undetectable that is enumerated is the Hide check. There is no other way that is by RAW, which is what we are discussing, described to becoming undetectable. Wait, I tell a lie. There are things like Etherealness and I believe a few of the monsters might have various abilities.

And, for guidance, we do have numerous examples of things that are not interacting with the environment, make no noise and aren't moving and are set up to be as undetectable as possible - traps. Yet, funnily enough, every trap has a Perception DC. Even magical traps have Perception DC's.

Remember, any DC higher than 20 is meant to be something you see once in a lifetime kind of thing. A PC with a Passive Perception of 25 (for example) has virtually godlike perception abilities. But, it's defeated by a simple 2nd level spell effect? Seriously? This is a guy who can count the dots on a golf ball in flight, but, an invisible target ten feet away totally baffles him?

Yeah, no thanks.

 

[Oofta]

The only place I'm aware of that describes the round is in the combat section where combat (and, therefore, the round) starts with the highest initiative and ends when every combatant has taken a turn. This is, of course, modified by specific rules that might allow a creature two turns in a round.

This equals your points one and two. I am not aware of anything in the rules that describes a creature's round as you've laid out in point three. As far as I've read, there is no such thing as a "creature's round". Effects are always described as lasting until the start/end of a creatures next turn. I've never read an effect that lasts a certain number of rounds.

Spells regularly refer to rounds. True Strike, for example has a duration of concentration up to 1 round, but there are several others. The only logical way to interpret it is as a creature's round.

This was explicitly spelled out in previous editions, I wish they would do the same to avoid confusion in 5E.

 

[Oofta]

Funny thing is though, ladders, stairs and various other ways of going from the bottom of a cliff to the top ARE enumerated. Namely under the DC descriptions in the DMG and under various other places in the PHB.

But, the only way to be undetectable that is enumerated is the Hide check. There is no other way that is by RAW, which is what we are discussing, described to becoming undetectable. Wait, I tell a lie. There are things like Etherealness and I believe a few of the monsters might have various abilities.

And, for guidance, we do have numerous examples of things that are not interacting with the environment, make no noise and aren't moving and are set up to be as undetectable as possible - traps. Yet, funnily enough, every trap has a Perception DC. Even magical traps have Perception DC's.

Remember, any DC higher than 20 is meant to be something you see once in a lifetime kind of thing. A PC with a Passive Perception of 25 (for example) has virtually godlike perception abilities. But, it's defeated by a simple 2nd level spell effect? Seriously? This is a guy who can count the dots on a golf ball in flight, but, an invisible target ten feet away totally baffles him?

Yeah, no thanks.

I just did a search in the basic rules for ladders, stairs, elevators and gnomish throwing device DC (kidding about the last two). Nothing. If you're going to quote rules, you should verify that they exist.

I get that you would rule differently that even though a creature or object gives no visual cues, is making no sound, is not interacting with the environment in any detectable way could still be detected. Your choice.

But it's annoying that you insist that I am somehow using my ruling to violate DM Rule #5 "Don't be a Dick" or that the rules say something that they don't. That you have "the one true interpretation" of the rules.

The rules state that you can take an action to hide.

What do the rules say about invisibility?
• When you're invisible, you can always try to hide (from sidebar on hiding in Chapter 7).
• When you're invisible, you're heavily obscured for the purposes of hiding (from the entry for "Invisible" in Appendix A).
• When you're invisible, any creature trying to see you is effectively blinded with regard to seeing you (from the PH errata about "Vision and Light" in Chapter 8 about observers being "effectively blinded" when trying to notice something heavily obscured).
• A creature that is effectively blinded "automatically fails any ability check that requires sight," per the "Blinded" condition in Appendix A.

So we know someone trying to perceive you by sight is going to fail.

What about silenced?

• According to the Silence Spell, a person affected by the spell is deafened.
• According to Deafened: a deafened creature can’t hear and automatically fails any ability check that requires hearing.

So if you can't see or hear, you are automatically going to fail checks based on those two, sight and sound. They are the primary ways to detect someone. No matter what your passive perception is.

The only chance to perceive someone you can't see or hear is then assuming that they interact with the environment in a way that can be detected. Obviously you're going to notice something weird if someone is standing in water. But there has to be something other than sight or sound, which is a DM's call.

This was all spelled out in the podcast that I linked to long ago. That they chose to leave the rules vague and never state that you know where someone is unless they take the hide action.

So while I agree that the primary way to avoid detection in combat is to take the hide action, the rules are also clear that you can't perceive something you can't see or hear based on sight or hearing (and the fact I have to point that out is just dumb). Any other possibility of detection is left up to the DM.

 

[Harzel]

Remember, any DC higher than 20 is meant to be something you see once in a lifetime kind of thing. A PC with a Passive Perception of 25 (for example) has virtually godlike perception abilities. But, it's defeated by a simple 2nd level spell effect? Seriously? This is a guy who can count the dots on a golf ball in flight, but, an invisible target ten feet away totally baffles him?

Yeah, no thanks.

A DC 25 task is very hard for low-level characters to accomplish, but it becomes more reasonable after 10th level or so. (emphasis theirs)

Believing that a creature with a PP of 25 could auto-detect a large-ish invisible object nearby seems (IMO) perfectly reasonable and you'd be justified setting up and running a world that worked that way.

But your characterizations ("once in a lifetime" and "godlike") seem a little over the top in terms of the guidance/commentary in the DMG. A 13th level PC with 20 WIS and expertise in Perception will have a PP of 25. And so your implication that someone running things differently may be condescendingly dismissed seems (to me) poorly founded.

 

[SubDude]

Almost fifty posts with but a single possible rule to add to the discussion.

Anyway, regarding the invisibility debate, is it possible that all creatures are objects, but only living objects are creatures? I haven't delved into the rules on this one, but was wondering.