D&D 5E What rules would you like to see come back in 5E?

[delericho]

With cyclic initiative, it is very hard to pursue anyone. If two characters have the same movement rate, one can never catch the other until they start failing con checks - barring outside interference, of course.

That's less a problem with cyclic initiative as with the per-round structure itself, though. There are all sorts of funnies thrown up because everyone has fixed movement rates, they move in 6-second fixed increments, and only one person moves at a time.

Try modelling two characters carrying a ladder through a battlefield, with either cyclic or per-round initiative, and see how well it works.

 

[The Human Target]

They both move on the same initiative using the lowest common speed, and sharing one move action.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Spell interruption would be nice in theory, but figuring out how to do it without completely screwing casters over would be difficult.

This is kind of the point. In addition to making the game more tactically interesting, spell interruption drastically reduces the power differential between casters and melee. It also makes melee essential to keep the enemies off your caster so he can get off his spell, encouraging teamwork. I don't recall nearly as much complaints about casters being "too strong" back in the day when they could be interrupted.

 

[Garthanos]

That's less a problem with cyclic initiative as with the per-round structure itself, though. There are all sorts of funnies thrown up because everyone has fixed movement rates, they move in 6-second fixed increments, and only one person moves at a time.

Try modelling two characters carrying a ladder through a battlefield, with either cyclic or per-round initiative, and see how well it works.

Then we have the Quantum PC issue... am I in the area of the fireball when the fireball is actually thrown? Since our actions and movements are all taking place at the same exact time, but we artificially take turns? So does his fireball forces me to be at a particular location (after I have already had my turn or before it entirely?.. and I may only be in the area of his fireball for a very limited part of his turn but he himself moved to get in to position so is it even possible to track this back to character immersive pov?

To me it seems so fundamental how can the sim crowd not go insane.

 

[MJS]

This is kind of the point. In addition to making the game more tactically interesting, spell interruption drastically reduces the power differential between casters and melee. It also makes melee essential to keep the enemies off your caster so he can get off his spell, encouraging teamwork. I don't recall nearly as much complaints about casters being "too strong" back in the day when they could be interrupted.

And the thought that it would somehow be hard to implement is to me quite silly in the face of endless rules additions over the years. It's extremely easy: your spell has a casting time, if you happen to get hit mid spell, you lose it.

 

[Hussar]

What 1E/2E spell does this matter with?

True. That generally won't affect 1e/2e spells. But, anything from 3e or 4e is certainly going to be an issue.

Any spell which stuns a target for 1 round. In random initiative, that doesn't really work. If you key off of the target, it's possible that the target fails its save yet is completely unaffected. If you key off the caster, it's possible to get virtually two full rounds of effect depending on how the initiative plays out.

 

[sunshadow21]

This is kind of the point. In addition to making the game more tactically interesting, spell interruption drastically reduces the power differential between casters and melee. It also makes melee essential to keep the enemies off your caster so he can get off his spell, encouraging teamwork. I don't recall nearly as much complaints about casters being "too strong" back in the day when they could be interrupted.

You also saw many people not even bother with them or simply ignore many of the rules that made the combat "tactically interesting" or casters balanced. Things like spell interruption, and a slower leveling curve, these are not overly popular in their own right, and even less popular when in order to implement them, you force the core rules as a whole to be more complex. Done right, spell interruption could work in a limited form, but for true spell interruption, you would have to completely abandon the overall framework of how rounds work developed in, and used since, 3.0. That isn't going to happen; pre 3E, combat rounds were just plain messy. Tactical to a certain degree for those who liked it, but overall they were just plain messy. 3E's model wasn't perfect, but it smoothed out most of the worst messes; one of the costs was that casting spells became easier and it's now necessary to look for other ways to limit caster's power. If you want spell interruption, PF's solution is the best I've seen. It doesn't require reworking the basic combat structure, but it does mean that you have to take at least some care in your battle tactics. In the end, full on spell interruption has the same problem as weapon speed; both are great simulationist rules, but a lot of people simply want to play a game. For them, reality is fine as long as it can be done simply, and neither of these things can be. They didn't get left behind because they were inherently bad, they got left behind because they just weren't worth the hassle to worry about, and they still aren't. They don't work as optional material, and trying to incorporate them into core is an even bigger pain.

 

[sunshadow21]

And the thought that it would somehow be hard to implement is to me quite silly in the face of endless rules additions over the years. It's extremely easy: your spell has a casting time, if you happen to get hit mid spell, you lose it.

In case you haven't noticed, most DMs and players don't like interrupt tactics of any kind unless they are the ones doing the interrupting; they make for great cinematics, but if you just want cinematics, why use any rules at all? Delaying and readying an action have long been in the game, but most people don't use them for a reason. They are a simple enough concept, but at the table, they become anything but. Interrupting spells has the same problem; it becomes very, very messy when you are trying to get through a combat if everyone is constantly trying to do something at the same time. It's the same reason that initiatives became per battle instead of per round; players and DMs as a whole found the reduction in paperwork and chaos to be worth the cost paid in losing the randomness of doing it every round. It's the reason that PF has very few interrupt abilities; they just don't work at the table if they become the rule, not the exception. The original subset of nerds and geeks that liked the original editions may not have been bothered by it, but you'd never get it past today's player base.

 

[Lanefan]

Random initiative means you cannot really have 1 round duration effects. They just don't work.

Sure you can. If a spell resolves on init. '3' this round it runs out on init. '3' next round. How hard is that?

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

True. That generally won't affect 1e/2e spells. But, anything from 3e or 4e is certainly going to be an issue.

Any spell which stuns a target for 1 round. In random initiative, that doesn't really work. If you key off of the target, it's possible that the target fails its save yet is completely unaffected. If you key off the caster, it's possible to get virtually two full rounds of effect depending on how the initiative plays out.

First off, your rolled initiative is affected by your condition. If you're going to be stunned until init. '4' this coming round then you'll roll your initiative on a d4 as you cannot act on init. 5 or 6. (we use d6 for init., counting down)

You've also got to get through a round of being stunned while your opponents are whaling away on you; with the various AoO-type actions available in 3e/4e you've still got a problem even if you happen to get lucky regarding your foe's rolled initiatives.

Lan-"Bowgentle's Fleeting Journey, Command, Random Action - there's a few old spells with 1 round duration but not many"-efan