What scale of changes and changes themselves would you find acceptable?

[Razz]

The only change I will accept is a change from 3.5E to 4E with as miniscule changes similar to how 3.0 became 3.5 Any bigger and WotC can stick it where the sun don't shine.

I made the switch from 2E to 3E, then 3.5E. I lost tons of money switching from 2E to 3E as it is, I refuse to do it again with 4E. If I ever get the urge to ever want to do 4E, I won't get my books legally, that's for sure.

A hobby isn't worth it if what you spent in the past becomes completely useless in the future. I may switch my hobbies to video gaming because video games are always fun, from the early days of Nintendo to what they are now.

 

[scourger]

Ultimate changes got my vote, but mainly because I now prefer Savage Worlds to D&D. Within d20, I prefer 3.0 to 3.5, though; so small changes don't appeal. For me, 4e has got to be simpler. The current system is too complicated in the aggregate. Each part is cool, such as feats and magic. But taken together it's too much to run--especially as levels increase. Simplifying the magic and reducing the amounts of it would make me more interested. I think this is the direction that 4e will take, based on the success of D&D minis. The Star Wars Saga Edition may harbinger some of the 4e directions.

There are some "sacred cows" of D&D, however. Concepts like classes, hit points and saving throws. Those names will be preserved at a minimum. The mechanics may be different, but the concepts will remain.

Also, the system has to be expandable in some ways. The company has to be able to continue to print & sell products. That's not bad. It's just business. So, some things will have to be somewhat complicated in order to support expansion.

 

[Crothian]

Any changes are fine as long they leave it D&D. I don't want it to go rules light or even rules heavy. D&D was never those and I have games that do that. I want D&D to be D&D and not becoem a game I already have.

 

[Greg K]

I could live with the following changes:

I. Races
1. Removing weapon proficiency/familiarity, stonecunning, combat bonuses and skill bonuses from the nonhuman races and just leaving stat modifiers, skill modifiers and biological abilities (save bonuses, low light vision, etc.)
2. replacing most immunities with +10 save modifiers unless the race is a construct, outsider, etc.

II. Classes
1. More flexability and customizaton
a. a) six generic classes (3 from UA + 3 hybrid classes (expert/warrior, expert/adept, and warrior/adept); or
b) make the classes more customizable by taking a d20Modern approach (but not basing the classes on ability scores)

2. If keeping classes as they currently exist
a) bard: move away from jack of all trades or
b) clerics as spontaneous divine casters (UA) with smaller spell lists determined by deity's domain. Also down the class by reducing the armor proficiency, bab, hit die, two good saves)
c) druid: tone down the class by reducing the armor proficiency, bab, hit die, two good saves);

d) monk: Rewrite for more customization/flexability. As much as I disliked Magic of Incarnum as a whole, I wouldn't mind seeing a monk with an incarnum like mechanic for harnessing ki to produce different effects.

e) Paladin : Replace it with a generic holy warrior class with spells at first level and a bard like spell progression, make them nonspellcasting, or make them PrCs

f) Ranger: rewrite it to start with 0 level spells at first level and spell progress like bard, make them nonspellcasting, or make them PrCs

f) sorcerer: Give a reason to stay 20 levels
-add the common housrule of Eschew Materials at level one and a metamagic feat at levels 5,10,15,20
-add bluff, diplomacy and use magical device as class skills

g) specialist wizards
-use the specialist wizard variant abilities from UA
-specialists get unique spell list as per 1e illusionist

h) include multiple class variants for each class especially the barbarian hunter, cloistered cleric, martial rogue, wilderness rogue, battle sorcerer, urban ranger


III. Combat:
1. Armor as DR
2. the addition of class based defense designed to work with armor
3. reintroduce facing and rear

iv. Magic
1. Spellpoint w/ vitalization (UA) or skill/feat for arcane casters

v Misc.
1. Action Points
2. Favored Environment
3. Weapon Groups instead of the current simple, martial, exotic
4. Saving throws as per d20Modern
5. Less item dependence on magic items
6. Remove +2/+2 skill feats or limit them to first level

 

[Sejs]

Any change to a new edition has to meet two criteria:

1) the resulting game still needs to be identifiably D&D. That means certain things have to stay: it has to be class and level based. There has to be some inclusion of a vancian magic system. The basic d20 resolution mechanic needs to remain intact.

2) the resulting game has to represent a significant enough departure from the previous edition to warrant a change in system. Changing a few feats is not significant enough. Minor balance tweaks is not significant enough. Look at the difference between 1e and 2e, or 2e and 3e. Just between 2e and 3e we saw a rehaul of saves, THAC0/Ac, wp vs feats, nwp vs skill ranks, etc.

4e would have to represent a fundamental change in the game. A big fat one. But it'd still have to be D&D at its heart.

 

[Troll Wizard]

Moderate Changes

Classes - remain the same
Prestige Classess - rework or eliminate, use feat chains to create custom classes or make sure prestige classes gain something over a base classes due to specialization and lose something due to specialization
Hit Points/Saves - remain the same
Weapons/Armor/Equipment - remain the same
Alignment - remain the same
Skills - remain the same
Combat/AC/BAB - remain the same, with more base "actions" (move and standard) available to all classes
Feat - rework feats so that they scale like spells
- metamagic feats should be reworked
- develop separate metamagic feats solely for sorcerers, i.e. as natural spellcasters versus trained spellcasters... Natural spellcasters should be able to manipulate their arcane spells in novel and interesting ways through practice.
Spells - could use some work, rescale power of spell's downward to bring straight casters more in line with non-casters
Magic Items - some things like "DR/silver law etc are great", but the walmart shopping/mandatory requirement of magic items for the PCs needs to go. As a DM its fun letting the PCs acquire (looting the dead or retreiving ancient treasure) unique/interesting/useful and sometimes powerful magic items, but don't make it a requirement as part of the PCs advancement. Revamp the magic item creation rules, probably just get rid of the feats as well.

Overall power level of the game needs to be toned down so that its fun (IMV) run a game past 10th - 12th level, right now I enjoying DMing, but past 10th it becomes too much of a chore. I would never DM a epic game.

Adding more options without increasing the power level of the game would be a great boon, as seen with Tome of Battle, e.g. the various marital strikes etc require a standard action; thus characters must give up their iterative attacks to use those strikes.

 

[Ferghis]

I'd rather have fewer stats/abilities, and make each point significant. Maybe turn saves into abilities. After all, they describe a character in a very similar way. I do think perception should be an ability, despite my drive to reduce the number of stats.

Someone suggested making feats, class abilities and special powers a generic ability. I like this.

Classes should be more generic (the basic four or less), with suggested templates for various flavors of classes. Every level-up should bring some significant rewards. I think this last point is fundemental. Fighters that only improve their BAB by 1 and get a couple of skill points when they level up are a real anti-climax for what should otherwise be an important event in character development.

I do think the magic system should be completely revamped, but I like the vancian system. I think it's a D&D staple. I think spell accounting needs to be simplified so there is less to track: variables like duration and distance should be turned into "encounter" or "once" or "field of vision". I really think the buff system needs to be reworked to simplify and empower it. It's a ton of work to track the 12 buffs of a mid-high level party, maybe only one of which has the true awe that a spell should have (at least when cast by a high level caster). There was a thread on this a couple of months ago, and I though it had many insightful points. I'd like it if 4e drew a lot from that thread. High level casters should have much fewer spells than they currently have (diminishing the bookkeeping process), but be able to cast them to greater effect.

I think the skill system needs to be both simplified and expanded, but I don't know how to do this. I think that characters that start the game with 200 years of life should know something more than characters who have only lived 20 years. Skills that do not directly tie directly into a class should me made generic, and their improvement tied not to level advancement, but actual gameplay (becoming a great blacksmith should reflect working with a great blacksmith for years, not killing monsters and then training with one for a few weeks). I'd be happy to see general (non-class) skill ratings reduced significantly, with distinctions being between general levels of mastery, and not between 12 ranks or 14 ranks. I think this would make gameplay much more fluid.

 

[Destil]

Many of these changes would make it less D&D to me, and therefore wouldn't be acceptable as 4E. Some other game system easily, or some alternate (for the people who want fewer classes / point buy mabye something similar to basic/OD&D vs AD&D? Wizards would most liklely not want to dilute the branding that way, though, and just relelease optional rules).

About the only thing I would like seeing more complex is saves, as having 5-6 types of saves wouldn't hurt the game too much (physical vs mental reflex saves, for instance...).

As far as ability scores, if anything FEWER is the way to go. Fold Con into Str and Wis into Cha (and rename it willpower). Str Dex Int Will. But 6 stats are a rather iconicly D&D.

 

[Dykstrav]

It's a minor thing, but I'd like to see more DMs open to the idea of swapping ability score modifiers for certain checks. For example, Charisma is supposed to represent force of personality and the like. Should a character be able to use Charisma on Will saves instead of their Wisdom modifier? I've already seen many people house rule Charisma to Appraise when haggling.

Maybe at least a feat that'd allow you to swap out ability modifiers for certain checks, that'd be cool.

 

[Allensh]

Switch to four classes (template bases):
Warrior - Priest - Mage - Rogue

Let everything else be a combination of special abilities, feats, skills and roleplay.

QFT!!

Also, monster stat blocks that don't take up huge amounts of space and reduced prep time for GMs.

Allen