What Should Be Done With Psionics?

[Flobby]

Well after reading (most) of these threads, I have some thoughts...
What I was orginaly hoping for when 3E came out was for a psionics book more comprehensive than 2E. Something that would encompase all the psychish things in fantasy and sci-fi, something that could feel all the niches in the PH. Classes in 4E seem to be (I hope) more variable so I might just get my wish.

Why don't they just make a psionics book with a few classes that fit the various niches of things in fantasy/sci-fi that might be able to be called "psionic." (And "Psionics" is Western fantasy more than it is Hindu/Buddhist I believe.) Just some thoughts but... (pay no attention to the names!)

Psychic- a psychic with a more "modern" or psi-fi feel, you know telepathy, telekinesis, and mind control.
Monk- an asian themed guy, kung-fu and wuxia-ish abilities.
Mystic- a more Indian/Buddhist themed guy, an ascetic (sp?) monk type guy. Physically weak with more magic-like powers maybe.
Knight- a warrior who gains some extra boosts by focusing his mind.
Shaman- a psychic who gets a little help from spirits around him.
Soulknife- a lot of people seem to like these guys (always seemed more fit for a pres class to me though).
Mentalist- someone with a computer like mind (the expert).
Thats all I can think of right now.

I personally didn't care for the crystal/ectoplasm stuff. (I prefer a more "modern" feel). But a lot of people do-- so why not make seperate classes?

OR put the asian themed guys in an Oriental Adventures and give the Psionics the sci-fi/modern feel...

 

[JDJblatherings]

I think the most sacred cow of psionics is that it is different from magic, and immune to many of the things that suppress magic (yet having its own set of things that suppress psi power.) As long as this Most Holy Bovine is kept in 4E, I think fans of psionics will be pleased.

And I second what Enforcer said about reducing the science overlap. Absolutely.

Not really. "Same as magic" is a common treatment of psionics in the current rules and works fine for many. I like the "different from magic" style myself only because i like some sort of achille's heel in the powerful, even if it is a simple as -> "crud i didn't have a dispel psionics spell"

 

[FreeXenon]

"Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of the pick-a-nick basket, eh, padwan Boo-Boo?" N

You, so, owe me a key board buddy!


I am thinking that perhaps Psionics may be similar to Force abilities. This would not only differentiate them in mechanics, but also in flavor. Force users have a very limited amount of abilities that are psionic like. The trick will be to balance the magic mechanic with the distinctly different psionic/force mechanic.

 

[Nifft]

Personally, I'd like to see psionics as a separate system with its own mechanics jettisoned. Make it a school of magic.

Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved did something similar with [Psionic] as a descriptor to certain spells, and a Psion feat giving you special access to those spells (and removing restrictions regarding them).

Cheers, -- N

 

[SteveC]

Swap Essence = Arcane with Essence = Nature... now Arcane is Arcane according to Rolemaster.

It could work ,
William Holder

Sounds good to me. Now I should also mention that Rolemaster spells go up to a level 50 cap, so we can only imagine where 5th edition will end up...

Forgot to add this part:



--Steve

 

[masshysteria]

OR put the asian themed guys in an Oriental Adventures and give the Psionics the sci-fi/modern feel...

Honestly, this is what I'm hoping for. Give me the best of both worlds: a Psionics power source which keeps the best of the 3.5 psi material some pseudo-science included (crystals can be dropped though) and then a Ki power source that encompasses martial arts and "Eastern mysticism".

But, psionics isn't without problems. Psionic monsters, treasure, campaign qualities (arcane+divine+psi/arcane+psi/divine+psi/psi only), and the like need better integration with the core.

If they go forward with a second set of PHB/MM/DMG each year. I'd love to see the PHB have psionics, ki, and artificing power sources, the MM include a bunch of monsters that use these themes (mind flayers, githyanki, etc.), and the DMG tackle the issues listed in the previous paragraph.

 

[GreatLemur]

Well, as I think I've said, I find the idea the psioncism should be bound very specifically to Central Asian mysticism every bit as annoying as psuedoscience-based psionics, and less justified or appropriate.

The vast majority of psionic powers are not connected with Buddhist monks or the like (Telepathy, which I would argue is by far the most major psionic power, for example, is not commonly attached to Buddhist monks in either the Western mind, or Eastern legend afaik), and Hindu mystics are just out-and-out wizards, who cast actual spells all the darn time, spells worthy of any D&D wizard, who call forth this and that from the sky, and so on. They in no way resemble D&D's psionics.

I think you misunderstand my reasoning.

I wasn't so much suggesting those particular sources of inspiration because they were the only (or the most D&D-appropriate) mythical sources for mental powers (although, really, no matter how wizardly you might think their supposed effects are, the whole focus on meditation and visualization that you find in Eastern mysticism sounds extremely psionic to me).

My main point was simply that those sources offer a nice flavor that's distinct from both Western wizards and New Age psychics. Furthermore, given the 4e focus on "power sources", it seems logical, tidy, and flavor-appropriate to say that Psions and Monks are both tapping into the same non-divine, non-arcane quasi-magic. And, of course, there's the fact that Eberron's psionics seem to have a little bit of that angle already.

And please ease up on the "Orientophilia" accusations. We really, really need less of that debate in this forum.

 

[Sadrik]

I'm sorry, but that's one of the most arbitary summaries of "what psionics does" that you could possibly hope for. Completely ignoring vast swathes of powers for no reason other than "Sadrik doesn't like them".

You completely misunderstand my stance. I said this:

However, I wont be happy if they can: blast things (like they can in 3.5), raise undead, make illusions, or do other things that other classes should be doing. I dont want the psion spoiling other class niches.

I bolded the applicable text. Psions in 3.5 are off base thematically. I hope I don't have to explain this to you.

Illusions are also one of the commonest psionic/psychic powers - false images placed in the mind. Contrary to what you suggest, psions should be masterful at illusions, not incapable.

Placing images in or removing images from the mind are not Illusions in the traditional sense they are phantasms by D&D lingo terms. Phantasms should absolutely be a part of the Telepath's arsenal but the other 4/5ths of the illusion school should not. They should have nothing to do with figments, patterns, shadows, and glammers.

Summoning monsters, raising undead, shooting extremely powerful and flashy blasts, randomly shrinking or enlarging things, these sort of purely-magical effects I agree should be limited to Wizards. Setting a guy on fire though? That's always been a part of psionics, and for it to go for no real reason would be pretty awful.

Summoning giant gem monsters from the astral plane, ectoplasmic cocoons, launching tons of crystal shards at people, shooting tornadoes at people... please, give me a break.

Here is a partial list of the current themes that the psion is dealing with:
shapchanging
healing (restoration, regeneration)
telepathy
time manipulation (time hop, temporal acceleration, quintessence- fold time in on itself!)
astral stuff
gem stuff
fireballs (w/lightning bolts, cold rays, bursts, cones, walls etc)
disintegrate
teleportation
self buffing
create a demi-plane
fuse flesh (wtf?)
telling the future
Their scope is too big for their breeches! Not to mention the powers are very haphazardly thrown together into the disciplines. I don't mind the telekinetic guy heating metal, or having a chill metal like effect even catching them on fire or freezing them briefly as a targeted non-area effect power would be fine with me (high level and part of the telekinetic). But basing a whole class on the, "catch you on fire freeze you" is bad- especially the 3.5 implementation of it.
Here is my list again. Overlap in the three types should be minimal.
1. Telepathy (mind control, astral projection, mind reading, psychic blasts, improved mental capabilities, mind-blade, precognition etc.)
2. Telekinesis (force like effects: shields, walls, blasts, bigby's hands, "mage" hand, levitate himself, fly himself etc.)
3. Body control (heal self, physical improvements, improved senses, monk-like abilities, transform arm into a weapon, make himself light as a feather, bio-electric shocks, energy absorption etc.)


Time/reality manipulation should be a wizard's forte not a psion's.
Energy/element manipulation should be a wizard's forte not a psion's.
Teleportation should be a wizard's forte not a psion's.
Physical drain attacks should be a warlock/necromancer's forte not a psion's.

Mental drain attacks should be a psion's forte.
Telekinesis/force manipulation should be a psion's forte.
Telepathy/mind manipulation should be a psion's forte.



Here is my list for each role (damn these would be cool) unique from the wizard and very potent still:

Controller: Psion - Controlling enemies via either Telepathy or Telekinesis. Capable of a wide variety of effects. Telekinetic Force blasts knocking opponents back, telepathic psychic attacks stunning enemies briefly, and both creating battle fieldeffects to alter the flows of the fight.

Leader: Apothecary - Body control leaders use their powers to absorb the damage and effects from others and then heal themselves. They also use their uncanny senses to gain and give bonuses on the battle field.

Defender: Psychic Warrior - Using Telepathy and Telekinesis, the character fights and defends using powers. Telekinetic psychic warriors access powers that give him a telekinetic weapon that can be summoned to his hand and uses telekinetic force fields and shields and walls to defend himself and those around him. Telepathic defenders, use psychic energy blades and use their mental powers to know what the enemy is going to do before they do it.

Striker: Monk - Using body manipulation to be extremely fast and utilize their hands as weapons. The character can move in strike and exit quickly. Their tremendous host of body control abilities gives the ability to accomplish many feats others could not.

I think a telepathic psychic warrior would be sooooooo sweet.

 

[Jer]

QFT!
Seriously, keep your psionics expansions out of my core book expansions.

You're not going to get your wish. It was stated flat out in the most recent D&D podcast that psionics are already a planned expansion to the rules.

Personally, I like the mechanics of 3e psionics, but the actual powers were written so that you could pull out the standard magic system and replace it with the psionics system entirely. I imagine they'll do something similar in 4e since they're looking at "power sources" and "roles" as separate things now. I'd expect a psionic expansion to at least attempt to slot a psionic class into each role if it doesn't devolve into silliness to do it.

OTOH - "divine psionics" like in the Complete Psionic book are pretty much unnecessary. The whole "psionic mantle' thing was an interesting bit of mechanics, but why copy the cleric so much? Just odd.

In fantasy (and yes, that includes the science fantasy that psionics comes from), psionics and magic are pretty much interchangable. Psionics tends to be a "scientific" explanation for how magic works in the world (for example, Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books). I would expect to see a lot of overlap between what magic can accomplish and what psionics do because they're basically the same thing. The main difference between psionics and magic is that psionics is mainly internal (represented by powers) and magic is mainly external (represented by spells). They should actually be able to get away with minor mechanical changes to the magic system and give a workable psionics system.

 

[Cadfan]

In fantasy (and yes, that includes the science fantasy that psionics comes from), psionics and magic are pretty much interchangable. Psionics tends to be a "scientific" explanation for how magic works in the world (for example, Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books). I would expect to see a lot of overlap between what magic can accomplish and what psionics do because they're basically the same thing. The main difference between psionics and magic is that psionics is mainly internal (represented by powers) and magic is mainly external (represented by spells). They should actually be able to get away with minor mechanical changes to the magic system and give a workable psionics system.

I agree that in fantasy, psychic powers (essentially mind powers) and magic powers are functionally interchangeable.

I think that just creates a trap for D&D though. The game doesn't need an extra version of normal magic. If that's all psionics is or can be, then psionics should be eliminated, rabid core of fans or not.

If psionics can be turned into something that's actually different from and complementary to D&D magic, then I'm enthusiastic about it.