What Should Be Done With Psionics?

[Dinkeldog]

I think the most sacred cow of psionics is that it is different from magic, and immune to many of the things that suppress magic (yet having its own set of things that suppress psi power.) As long as this Most Holy Bovine is kept in 4E, I think fans of psionics will be pleased.

And I second what Enforcer said about reducing the science overlap. Absolutely.

I'm a big fan of psionics, but this is what I would hope for:

Look at Rolemaster and see how they break down their spellcasters. They have essence (wizards), channeling (clerics), and mentalism (should-be-psionics). Each has strengths and weaknesses, but they're pretty transparent. The only difference is the power source and certain effects are easier for the different types of caster. I'd like to see basic telepathy to be a trivial effect for a psion, as an example, but much more difficult for clerics and wizards--maybe even limited to one-way until extremely high power levels.

I do have to admit, though, a certain fondness for the psicrystals. As this is imbuing a construct with sentience, maybe you say that it's fairly easy for psionic users while more difficult for divine and arcane casters.

 

[Ahrimon]

I guess I have a completely different viewpoint.
Psionics = Magic and Magic = Psionics. Everything else is just window dressing. Many ideas taken from myth relate to both psionics and magic.

Wizard: "I can read peoples mind with magic"
Psion: "I can read peoples mind with psionics"
Wizard: "Well I can blow things up with magic"
Psion: "I can blow things up with psionics"
Wizard: "Yeah, but I can change into <insert creature here> using magic"
Psion: "uh-huh. I can do that too, but I use psionics."

It's all the same crap. Anyone complaining that a psion shouldn't be able to blow stuff up should have to concede that wizards can no longer read minds or use "telekinetic" powers. I can't beleive how people get so worked up over these two types of caster when it's nothing more than what window dressing you put onto them. A psion uses inner power, a wizard bends outer power to his will. Yeah, that's so extremely different.

I'm a fan of psionics in the game mainly because it models someone using inner power, or channeling power through themselves to do things. Mainly because a lot of what they could do was never given as an option to the traditional caster templates. So I say bring on the psionic power source. But either keep the overlap, or take away from the wizards what rightfully belongs in psionics. I think you'll find that a great many magic abilities would beter qualify as psionic.

 

[Bacris]

So I say bring on the psionic power source. But either keep the overlap, or take away from the wizards what rightfully belongs in psionics. I think you'll find that a great many magic abilities would beter qualify as psionic.

QFT, as seems to be the TLA of the year

 

[Jer]

I agree that in fantasy, psychic powers (essentially mind powers) and magic powers are functionally interchangeable.

I think that just creates a trap for D&D though. The game doesn't need an extra version of normal magic. If that's all psionics is or can be, then psionics should be eliminated, rabid core of fans or not.

If psionics can be turned into something that's actually different from and complementary to D&D magic, then I'm enthusiastic about it.

Actually, I think that the Vancian magic system made a strong case for the existence of a separate psionics system in previous editions. While there are darn few fictional worlds that use Vancian type magic, there are no fictional precedents for psionics using a Vancian type system. The mechanics of the psionic systems in 1e, 2e and 3e were all just point-based magic systems with "spell lists" restricted to things with a psychic flavor.

By removing (or even just reducing) the Vancian nature of the core magic system, the need for a separate psionics mechanical system lessens. It will probably come down to how they create the spellcasters in the end. The mechanical characteristics of a psionics system are that the psionic character should be able to access any power he has at any time (no X/day restrictions) and should not need external focus elements (no material components). If you can make those two things, and set up some "spell schools" that are mentalist/telekinetic/body control in nature, you can build a psionic as a "flavor" of arcane casting.

OTOH - I wouldn't mind seeing a unique psionic "power source" put out there to use. Especially if they merge the "ki" powered classes with the psionic classes. I think you may end up with things that cover the same ground as the arcane spellcasters, but that's to be expected.

 

[Sadrik]

I guess I have a completely different viewpoint.
Psionics = Magic and Magic = Psionics. Everything else is just window dressing. Many ideas taken from myth relate to both psionics and magic.

I am of the same opinion from a game design stand point. However... WoTC sells books and having the power sources broken up into martial/divine/arcane/psionic and the roles as defender/striker/leader/controller doesnt leave them with a lot of expansion room- new classes will sell books. I would love it if the system said:
pick your role
pick your power source
pick your profession, race, skills, feats, talents, equipment
done.

It wont be that way though, a book full of extra feats, talents and equipment wont sell as well- I am sure they did the market research...

So what we get is classes which represent the role the power source and the profession rolled up into one thing. But again I would love it if your role and powersource were just the frameworks that you hung your profession and everything else on.

 

[FreeXenon]

I posted something specifically about that potential methodology here: 4E Roles and Classes

 

[fuindordm]

Anyone complaining that a psion shouldn't be able to blow stuff up should have to concede that wizards can no longer read minds or use "telekinetic" powers. I can't beleive how people get so worked up over these two types of caster when it's nothing more than what window dressing you put onto them. A psion uses inner power, a wizard bends outer power to his will. Yeah, that's so extremely different.

I'm not calling for a complete moratorium on powers/spells/prayers that are "off theme". Maybe a sprinking of such things is necessary to make a class more useful/attractive, or to support the trope of a four-PC party. But classes with the appropriate power source should have a huge advantage

But in 3E terms, ESP should be a 1st level power for psionicists and at least a 3rd level spell for wizards. And wizards should only be able to do very basic tricks with telepathy, nothing like the facy stuff that a psion can do.

Similarly, I don't mind if a cleric of Thor can toss a lightning bolt--but for them it should be at least a fourth level spell, not a third.

I would love to see the Wizard finally get some real healing spells, even if cure light wounds is a 3rd level spell for them.

 

[Rechan]

I guess I have a completely different viewpoint.
Psionics = Magic and Magic = Psionics. Everything else is just window dressing. Many ideas taken from myth relate to both psionics and magic.

Wizard: "I can read peoples mind with magic"
Psion: "I can read peoples mind with psionics"
Wizard: "Well I can blow things up with magic"
Psion: "I can blow things up with psionics"
Wizard: "Yeah, but I can change into <insert creature here> using magic"
Psion: "uh-huh. I can do that too, but I use psionics."

It's all the same crap. Anyone complaining that a psion shouldn't be able to blow stuff up should have to concede that wizards can no longer read minds or use "telekinetic" powers. I can't beleive how people get so worked up over these two types of caster when it's nothing more than what window dressing you put onto them. A psion uses inner power, a wizard bends outer power to his will. Yeah, that's so extremely different.

I'm a fan of psionics in the game mainly because it models someone using inner power, or channeling power through themselves to do things. Mainly because a lot of what they could do was never given as an option to the traditional caster templates. So I say bring on the psionic power source. But either keep the overlap, or take away from the wizards what rightfully belongs in psionics. I think you'll find that a great many magic abilities would beter qualify as psionic.

Necromancer: "I control undead with the power of magic. I can animate the dead at 9th level!"
Cleric: "Really? I can rebuke or command free-willed undead from day one. I can animate the dead at 5th."
Conjurere: "I can consort with outsiders and summoned creatures!"
Cleric: "You mean summon monster spells? I have that. Also Planar Ally spells, so I can actually make deals with those outsiders. And I get Banishment a level before you."


If we can have such a distinct divide of abilities between Divine and Arcane casters, then we can have such a distinct divide between Arcane/Divine and Psionics.

 

[CleverNickName]

"Mind" as a Power Source?

Maybe psionics could be another power source for magic, and that's all. Clerics have a divine source (their power comes from the gods), and wizards have an arcane source (their power comes from energy or the elements). Psionic power could come from the mind...after all, we humans only use about 20% of our brains, right? What happens if we "unlock" the rest of it in a fantasy setting?

Most divine magic has a distinctive feel to it (miracles, healing, plagues, etc.), and so does arcane magic (fireballs, lightning bolts, meteors). If most of the mental-affecting spells and effects were moved to the psionic talent trees (force effects, telekinesis, and so on), psionics could also have their own distinctive feel. The separation would be painful at first, and would take some getting used to, but I think the end result would be a higher-quality product.

The trouble is, a lot of sacred cows in the D&D game would best fit under the psionic talent trees (most charms and compulsions, as well as most force effects and mind-blasters like mage armor and feeblemind.) I don't see wizard-lovers wanting to give these spells up, and for good reason. Conversely, I don't think many people would want to play a psionic who couldn't blast or heal. So obviously, some spells/talents would have to be on both the arcane and psionic lists...but without enough separation between what is an arcane spell and what is a psionic effect, everything blends into everything else and psions become just another sorcerer variant.

That is the real problem, IMHO. Most people want psions to walk and talk like a sorcerer, but not be a sorcerer.

I don't really have any solutions...but I think the "mind" power source and talent trees would be a step in the right direction.

 

[DreamChaser]

QFT!
Seriously, keep your psionics expansions out of my core book expansions.

Hmmm...odd comment for a what do you want to see 4e psionics have thread.


If psionics = non core then psionics = easily broken.

If psionics = core expansion (like PHB2-x) then psionics = integrated and more readily balanced.

Nice thing about core expansions is they can be ignored by those who do not want to include them.

I want to see less science, less transparency / overlap, but I like that there was clear parity in 3.x psionics between psionics and magic so that there was an equivalent system to balance against. This (amongst 100000000 other reasons) is why 1e and 2e psi was so horribly broken.

And with Eberron as a supported setting, there is absolutely 0% chance that psionics will not be included (as was mentioned above).

DC