D&D 5E (2024) What should the 15th Class be?

[Zardnaar]

Could this explain why some people are unsatisfied with the 5e Ranger?

Probably not. New Rangers big problem is built around hunters mark and tripping over bonus actions.

Main class features hunters mark. OK cool bonus action.

Beastaster pet bonus action.

Dual wielding bonus action. Nick ok cool take the feat. Bonus action. Great Weapon master feat. Bonus action.

Shield master feat. Bonus action.

So you basically go archer unless you're a beast master.

The you hit level 10 or 11 and you're falling being. The smart ranger player MCs out at 5th.

You don't have to take those feats but then you're falling further behind.

 

[Mind of tempest]

That's the EK basically.

false the ek is trying to fill the hole the arcane half caster is meant to fill but it never quite fits

 

[Mind of tempest]

No new official core class until the unfathomable has been found. (not including setting specific sub-classes)

okay but what do you feel the unfathomable has to do with, any form of topic?

 

[James Gasik]

Not really.

The spells for a Smordmage/Gish currently don't exist.

And if they did, they would be overpowered in the hands of a wizard as EK chose wizard spells.

That always has been the fundamental issue. You would have to create a separate spell list of Arcane spells that a wizard would not have access to. That is something that many fans have issues with existing.

Not necessarily. I mean, Wizards can cast Spirit Shroud, and while they could get a lot of damage out of it with the right spell, having to be within 10' of the target is not something most Wizards are built to do. In fact, I'd point out that when the "Bladesinger"* cantrips were introduced to the game, despite the fact that a Wizard can certainly use them, the problem was mostly other classes getting their hands on things like Booming Blade for a damage boost than Wizards suddenly waving swords around!

Wizards can cast Enlarge to increase their melee damage. They typically don't. Wizards could cast Haste on themselves for another attack action. If they were to use the spell targeting themselves, that's probably not what they'd be doing with it. The problem isn't the Wizard having access to spells that a Gish would want. If anything, that's to the benefit of Eldritch Knights and Mystic Theurges, spell poaching Bards or multiclassed Wizards. The problem is that someone decided that "melee Wizard" wasn't some weird fringe build that would take a lot of effort to make work, and instead created a "melee Wizard" subclass complete with Int to AC and concentration saves, normalizing the idea.

If Bladesinging is allowed to exist, you're never going to get a good Gish. It's that simple, because the Bladesinger is allowed to masquerade as a melee combatant, even getting Extra Attack (something even Clerics and Rogues can't have, for some reason), and should that somehow prove not viable, they're still able to cast all the best non-melee spells in the game, up to 9th level, with boosted AC and concentration saves on par with a Sorcerer. Or better, should they decide to take Resilient!

Even if you made a 3/4 caster who can mix it up in melee, the fact that they can't suddenly decide to True Polymorph into a Marilith and get access to spell levels more slowly will hamper their power. Plus, the Bladelock is right there, already living in that space! And a 1/2 caster, the so-called "Arcane Paladin" would even be worse off, I'm sure, as they'd have to** should be a weaker warrior than an Eldritch Knight!

*I find it ironic that they are all based on Swordmage powers from 4e.

**Well, if anyone cared about balance at WotC. The Bladesinger existing makes the EK seem like a bad joke. Especially in 2024 where they're not even allowed to use Action Surge with the Magic action!

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Now I imagine the arcane-fighter like a "henshin hero" style Power Ranger or Magical Girl. Here the key is if a spellcaster with armour would be more a warmage, the class from 3.5 complete arcane. Other point is a martial spellcaster is very powerful when she is casting spells but when these are spent then she is weaker than the ordinary fighter.

Other option could be a "vampire class". The PC wouldn't be a true undead but the user of some cursed weapon or item, working like a simbiont. The PC could spend power points for special attacks and the reload would with each sucessful attack. There are maneuvers of the "devoted spirit" school we could use to playtest and look for the balance. Subclasses? Ventrue, Brujah, Toreador, Cangrel, Nofteratu, Malkavian, Tremere..

* An update of incarnum soulmelders? The "incarnum spells" could be used by the rest, but the soulmelders could spend point of essence for metamagic effects and chackras (body slots for magic items) would used to activate "upgrades". It would be "expansion-friendly".

The update of the vestige binder could be with special magic items but maybe it would be a spellcaster class designed for encounter powers. Some powers could be reloadable like martial maneuvers. A variant of vestige-binder class could work like a monster summoner and this could mark the difference.

* If a martia+arcane hybrid class could cast spells with range attack, why not to use the arcane-archer class? Maybe the arcane-martial isn't a warrior who studies magic but who use special magic pieces of armor, like the "Christmas trees" from videogames. Then the class would be right for players who wanted to be a "Christmas tree".

Other idea for magic-warrior would be a fighter with some special weapon, armour or item. Or a "rune-caver".

* Ghostrunner for the ninja class if we want a more culturally neutral name? Or "shadewalker", or "mistwander",

Some criminals could learn magic to be richer but... why a secret society of arcane spellcasters would want to work in stealth operations? How would be the social impact of a "ninja hidden village" in a D&D world?

 

[Minigiant]

Not necessarily. I mean, Wizards can cast Spirit Shroud, and while they could get a lot of damage out of it with the right spell, having to be within 10' of the target is not something most Wizards are built to do. In fact, I'd point out that when the "Bladesinger"* cantrips were introduced to the game, despite the fact that a Wizard can certainly use them, the problem was mostly other classes getting their hands on things like Booming Blade for a damage boost than Wizards suddenly waving swords around!

Wizards can cast Enlarge to increase their melee damage. They typically don't. Wizards could cast Haste on themselves for another attack action. If they were to use the spell targeting themselves, that's probably not what they'd be doing with it. The problem isn't the Wizard having access to spells that a Gish would want. If anything, that's to the benefit of Eldritch Knights and Mystic Theurges, spell poaching Bards or multiclassed Wizards. The problem is that someone decided that "melee Wizard" wasn't some weird fringe build that would take a lot of effort to make work, and instead created a "melee Wizard" subclass complete with Int to AC and concentration saves, normalizing the idea.

If Bladesinging is allowed to exist, you're never going to get a good Gish. It's that simple, because the Bladesinger is allowed to masquerade as a melee combatant, even getting Extra Attack (something even Clerics and Rogues can't have, for some reason), and should that somehow prove not viable, they're still able to cast all the best non-melee spells in the game, up to 9th level, with boosted AC and concentration saves on par with a Sorcerer. Or better, should they decide to take Resilient!

Even if you made a 3/4 caster who can mix it up in melee, the fact that they can't suddenly decide to True Polymorph into a Marilith and get access to spell levels more slowly will hamper their power. Plus, the Bladelock is right there, already living in that space! And a 1/2 caster, the so-called "Arcane Paladin" would even be worse off, I'm sure, as they'd have to** should be a weaker warrior than an Eldritch Knight!

*I find it ironic that they are all based on Swordmage powers from 4e.

**Well, if anyone cared about balance at WotC. The Bladesinger existing makes the EK seem like a bad joke. Especially in 2024 where they're not even allowed to use Action Surge with the Magic action!

Not necessarily.

Again.

You'd just need custom Gish spells that are overtime for their spell level but not on the wizard spells list.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So the choice of new class is a) a cleric who works without magic or b) a fighter who works by magic.