What Should the Market for Magic Look Like?

[Henry]

Isn't that how the game has often been played? "A mysterious man approaches you in the tavern and asks you to recover the famed McGuffin of Whatchamahusit..."

Yeah, but usually it's "get that for me and you get x gold, plus anything you find." I'm thinking more along the lines of the PC's being the business instead of just the grunt work. Something like,

"Bornar ir'Tavel of the Sharn ir'Tavels wants a Necklace of Adaptation. Hey, Aidan, didn't you say that there are legends of the Periapt of Glauin having properties like that, and it was lost when Glauin Castle was overrun three years ago? Let's go look!"

However, such would probably work better in a game where Item Creation feats were restricted, and the easiest way to get stuff is to go get what's already made.

 

[painandgreed]

Having developed a Kingdom level economy using Magical Medievel Societies: Western Europe (from Expeditious Retreat Press) and Gygax's "World Builder" books from Troll Lord Games I was blown away by how rich landed nobles apparently were. The most limiting factor on how wealthy they were was "employees".

I did much of the same work on my own before I bought said books and came out with much the same answers (they are adressed in a long lost thread titled "Fantasy World Economics") and also found nobles to be rich enough to afford most magic items that could be produced by available manufacturers. The king of a reasonably large kingdom, not even counting for private lands, would have millions of GP to play with, which even after upkeep and so forth, a few hundred thousand every year or so for items that would probably be for national security anyway was trivial. After a few generations, that's a lot of magic items, effectivly any they would want.

 

[mmadsen]

Having developed a Kingdom level economy using Magical Medievel Societies: Western Europe (from Expeditious Retreat Press) and Gygax's "World Builder" books from Troll Lord Games I was blown away by how rich landed nobles apparently were. The most limiting factor on how wealthy they were was "employees".

In real life, the limiting factor in an agrarian economy is, naturally, the amount of good farm land you can hold -- because there's a relatively finite amount of good farm land, and the population will quickly grow or shrink to match it.

Besides, with businesses generating 100's of million to Billion's of dollars in todays highly developed economic world, maybe the numbers aren't horribly off.

A real-world pre-modern economy brings in roughly US$300 per person per year, which is slightly more than a person needs to live -- at a quality we'd consider miserable today in the developed world.

By skimming the top off of what all the peasants make, the ruling class can (a) live well themselves, and (b) invest in infrastructure and durable goods, like roads, palaces, art, etc.

No "business" in a primitive economy is going to generate the kind of wealth we take for granted in the industrialized world.

On the other hand, labor is very, very cheap in a world where the vast majority of people cannot generate more than $1 of wealth per day, with access to good land and livestock. Real world aristocrats often had very few options for spending their money beyond hiring more people as servants.

 

[Rothe]

The market should be clean and well lit, unless speicalizing in necromantic items. Customers should be greeted promptly and offered a non-magical beverage. Employees should not be offended if the customer asks them to take the first sip.

All items are sold as is, without any warranties or representations that they are suited for their intended purpose, or indemnification that they are uncursed.

Healing potions should be placed at the back. These are your biggest seller along with "buff" items.

If you notice the customer has a retainer inquire if they have a +1 sword. (You can usually tell this by the lack of magical gear and a coin purse) Remind the customer that their are many creatures that need a +1 or better to hit; do they really want to leave them defenseless.

Give each item a name. Customers like the rare, the unique, the mysterious. They all want to feel what they have is special, a one-of-a-kind item. Sell the sizzle not the steak.

 

[Rothe]

I did much of the same work on my own before I bought said books and came out with much the same answers (they are adressed in a long lost thread titled "Fantasy World Economics") and also found nobles to be rich enough to afford most magic items that could be produced by available manufacturers. The king of a reasonably large kingdom, not even counting for private lands, would have millions of GP to play with, which even after upkeep and so forth, a few hundred thousand every year or so for items that would probably be for national security anyway was trivial. After a few generations, that's a lot of magic items, effectivly any they would want.

Was this after figuring in pay for the army, fortifications, ship building, cathedrals, etc.? Actual medieval nobility were often strapped for cash to pay for all their ventures. Sure they lived high on the hog, but paying for wars and fortifications and navies really eats that away. A reading of medieval history will show they were often in major debt to rich merchants, and defaulted on paying the troops. They were constantly devaluing the currency (electrum anyone) and defaulting on loans. Deficit spending aint' no modern invention.

 

[painandgreed]

Was this after figuring in pay for the army, fortifications, ship building, cathedrals, etc.? Actual medieval nobility were often strapped for cash to pay for all their ventures. Sure they lived high on the hog, but paying for wars and fortifications and navies really eats that away. A reading of medieval history will show they were often in major debt to rich merchants, and defaulted on paying the troops. They were constantly devaluing the currency (electrum anyone) and defaulting on loans. Deficit spending aint' no modern invention.

All irrelevant as they can default on their payments to a wizard or cleric as easily as a fighter.

 

[Rothe]

All irrelevant as they can default on their payments to a wizard or cleric as easily as a fighter.

How is this irrelevant to the wealth numbers you came up with for a medieval society? I'm curious if the game-aides/your calculations came out with numbers that reflect the historical situation when costs were figured in. I can imagine a fantasy situation is completely different, just curious on numbers based on a medieval European model, maybe I misread what was calculated.



I'm not sure ist's as easy to default on your wizard and cleric as fighter, the fighter doesn't have fireball nor do you need him to raise you form the dead. My advice, pay you cleric first.

 

[painandgreed]

How is this irrelevant to the wealth numbers you came up with for a medieval society?

*snip*

I'm not sure ist's as easy to default on your wizard and cleric as fighter, the fighter doesn't have fireball nor do you need him to raise you form the dead. My advice, pay you cleric first.

No, it's irrelevant that medieval nobles were straped for cash. Nobility and deficit spending has its advantages and that being that you can use credit to get what you need now and pay for it later, no matter if you can actually pay for it later. For that matter, I'm sure you can do reading of history and find opulent spending as well as being strapped for cash. Add in that this is D&D which as so many people point out, not a realistic representation of medieval europe*, and it really doesn't matter what things were like in RL.

If you want to see my numbers, you just have to type in site:enworld.org "fantasy world economics" to google and look a bit. It's a long string of over a dozen threads on various bits of the game system.

*Given that most lords could manage to convince a cleric of the plant domain to cast Plant Growth on their crops once per year, it can be expected that D&D nobles are one third richer than their RL counterparts anyway.

 

[FireLance]

Magic items are so diverse that I don't think that a single market model will cover all the way in which they can be sold.

Some magic items are relatively inexpensive, not particularly dangerous, and most people would find them useful from time to time (or just as insurance policies), like blessed bandages (from the Magic Item Compendium), or maybe even potions of cure light wounds. For such items, there might be shops that carry them as part of their regular inventory. These shops might not excusively deal in magic items, but would probably deal in related goods, e.g. herbalists for curative items.

Other items are more expensive, or would only be useful to people with special jobs or training. These would include scrolls, wands, magic arms and armor, and minor protective gear. There would probably only be a small number of establishments dealing in these items, but those who need them can probably find them with a little effort. Again, they might not deal exclusively deal in such items, but would have related interests, e.g. a temple, a mage's guild, an arms broker who supplies equipment to the local lord, etc.

Other items are more rare and expensive, e.g. weapons or armor with special properties, and obtaining a specific example would require more work. Occasionally, one might be available from a high-end broker, or might show up in an auction house.

Other items are almost unique, and those who want them may have to negotiate directly with the owner to obtain them, or, if they are lost, find them themselves.

Lumping all magic items in the same category is like expecting to buy asprin, a high-end rifle, a vintage vehicle, a rocket launcher, and Van Gogh's Sunflowers in the same way.

 

[Slife]

Lumping all magic items in the same category is like expecting to buy asprin, a high-end rifle, a vintage vehicle, a rocket launcher, and Van Gogh's Sunflowers in the same way.

From the black market?