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What Should the Market for Magic Look Like?

Like in Traveller it would depend on the effective law level of your campaign world. Most law levels of most campaign worlds (every setting I am aware of) has no law level anywhere near good enough to control a market on people who can teleport, go invisible, mask themselves from detection spells, etc...

Its probably cheaper for governments to be the best customers for such products.

Plus there are huge tracts of land where no ones law, except law of the mightiest, applies. Make items in such areas and only worry about local bandits and maybe enemies looking for you.

Then getting it to customers undetected will be relatively easy.
 

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Kid Charlemagne said:
I think that would be part of it, but goverments would probably seek to control markets, as well. In that case it might look like the overall Military business, with "legit" and black-market components, with the business trying to set itself up like the Arcane, as you point out in your next post.

Forgive me, but as Economics and Commerce is my field of study I feel compelled to post.

There isn't any reason to think that the gov't or military would want to clamp down on magical item production and here's my logic:

The government can afford to buy the best spelltossers in the area, You attach a character lvl 30 Wizard to an infantry division and suddenly it's fighting superiority skyrockets. SO to say that they "fear" the use of magic by anyone not under their control is understandable, but at the same time a scroll of fireball level 5 ain't exactly a suitcase nuke.

Second, Given the ... wide array of magical items, we can only conclude that many people have made this a fairly common and productive field of study. Hence what we should see is a level of increased efficiency and hence an increase in the production function for Magic goods. Given this level of production it's not without reason to think that any government just says "to hell with it" because there are simply too many items being sold/traded/produced to keep track of.

Granted these items will be for the more wealthy, but historically what items haven't been upon early introduction into the market? Hell the first automobiles made buying your own coach and horses cheap. But keep in mind that there are alot of governments, adventurers, scoundrels, and nobles out there to support this market.

Just my .02
 

painandgreed said:
All irrelevant as they can default on their payments to a wizard or cleric as easily as a fighter.

Yeah, because defaulting on payments to adventurers is a winning long-term strategy. I'm pretty sure the nobles inclined to that particular flavor of deficit spending would get weeded out early...
 

A few thoughts.

The magic items that a government would want and the ones the PC's would want are likely not the same. A Lyre of Building is kinda nice for some PC's, but, pretty much any landowner would salivate at the chance of having one. A Decanter of Endless Water is ok for a PC, but, could radically alter the economics of an entire town.

I think that right there would keep most governments from being able to control it effectively. There are just too many competing needs. It's all very well and good for the king to say no, but, he needs all the lords under him to support that in order for his decrees to work. Given the massive advantage a few simple magic items could give, I find it difficult to think that a king could gain the support he would need to control the market. Never mind that if a neighbouring king didn't limit magic, it would spill over anyway.

Looking at the existing medieval trade in relics can be enlightening actually. I'm thinking that there would be a very thriving trade, just as there was in the real world, for magical items within a D&D world.
 

The main problem I've always had with the idea of a 'Magic Shop' or 'Magic Bazaar' in RaW D&D is the cost of living issues.

On the one hand you have the fact that every magic item created will decrease the xp of the creator, eventually to the point that they will surely fall a level if they make another item. If I recall correctly, the RaW do not allow a character to make a magic item if the xp cost will cause a loss of level.

Thus, a character - whether PC or NPC - cannot, by the RaW continuously run a magic item shop based upon their own creations. At best they must buy from others the items they wish to sell - in which case the cost of the items must rise as they are likely switch hands multiple times. At worst the shop will have to be seasonal. Perhaps it is run from mid autumn to mid spring, and during the other half of the year the supposedly scholarly wizard and magic item crafter is an adventurer / explorer, seeking either more magic items to sell or more xp so he can make more items of his own.

The second issue is that of thievery. Most spells needed to have a chance of successfully running a magic shop are prohibitively expensive and usually of high level. An adept or wizard might run a potions shop, but the first mid level rogue that comes through and their stock - especially of the more expensive potions - is gone. There are simply too many spells at those levels that would allow a thief stealthful entrance and exit without detection.

Until a wizard is high enough in level to cast Dimensional Lock (an 8th level spell, so about 15th level for the caster) and a few other defensive spells of similar level, there is no way to run a magic item shop without having regular losses each time a mid or higher level group of adventurers comes through.

Once 3rd level wizard spells are within easy reach of a rogue, bard, or other arcane skill monkey, keeping valuables safe is less about prevention and more about delay. The owner of the shop can set alarm spells, have illusions to confuse, perhaps even have a Mage's Private Sanctum in permanent effect such that the thieves at least cannot scry ahead of time to better plan their assault. But they cannot permanently place a summoned creature in the shop - nor even cast such a summoning to last the night, as the spell does not last long enough and bindings would be too costly to use each night. The best options are combining permanent walls of force with a permanent mage's private sanctum. But even this is not possible until 13th level.

Indeed, as best I can tell, only at 13th level does a magic shop become a real possibility. Envelop the entire shop in a permanent Mage's Private Sanctum and re-enforce the walls with permanent Walls of Force (including the ceilings and floors). Each night fill the shop with a Solid Fog and create another Wall of Force at the doorway. Make certain to also cast an Alarm over the entire shop's innards (or at least enough to cover every possible entrance point) to give warning should these be breached (mental warning to the caster, and possibly also audible warning at the shop itself, acting much like a car alarm in that it draws interest of those near by - hopefully including the town guard).

Yet even then, note that a simple 3rd level spell available to just about all casters (Dispel Magic) can destroy each and every one of these on a successful check. So a rock of at least 11-12th level with maxed out Use Magic Device and a wand of Dispel magic could permanently destroy all this work in a few minutes, then wander in at his leasure, steal as he pleases, and leave.

Unless more spells enter core that can deal with these issues, RaW makes a magic shop indefensable until pre-epic levels - and arguably not even then, as rogues and spells exist that even better get around defenses and spells.
 

Dude. Stock your items in a permanent Magnificent Mansion. Only remove them after the purchase is complete. Nobody else can get in. Problem solved.
 


Slightly off-topic, but I imagine that given the issues that Nyeshet and others have presented regarding security that theft of magic items would probably become a capital offense, regardless of the value of the item. Not sure how effective such a punishment would be, but I suspect it would be the law nonetheless.

I prefer the auction/broker/commission idea for permanent magic items or expensive one shot or limited use items personally with low-level potions (especially healing potions) being fairly easy to locate.
 

mmadsen said:
In real life, the limiting factor in an agrarian economy is, naturally, the amount of good farm land you can hold -- because there's a relatively finite amount of good farm land, and the population will quickly grow or shrink to match it.
A real-world pre-modern economy brings in roughly US$300 per person per year, which is slightly more than a person needs to live -- at a quality we'd consider miserable today in the developed world.

By skimming the top off of what all the peasants make, the ruling class can (a) live well themselves, and (b) invest in infrastructure and durable goods, like roads, palaces, art, etc.

No "business" in a primitive economy is going to generate the kind of wealth we take for granted in the industrialized world.

On the other hand, labor is very, very cheap in a world where the vast majority of people cannot generate more than $1 of wealth per day, with access to good land and livestock. Real world aristocrats often had very few options for spending their money beyond hiring more people as servants.


In real life land may be a limiting factor in a certain number of lords situations, but in this area and with this particular Noble it isn't. The limiting factor is that he only has enough laborers available to work 400 acres instead of the thousands he could clear and use for crops.


The other factors you talk about are true, but in this kingdom the economy is developed enough using the books that I used, to know what he could spend his money on. Mostly books, Bardic entertainment, tutor/teachers for his children, buying wall hangings, paintings, fine horses, fine armor, fine weapons, fine everything. So plenty to spend money on, even in real life medievel times, depending on where you want to talk about.


According to the economic model I used from the books the farmers effectively earn 3 GP per month. Either coin, food, or likely a combination of both.

So, since the books and the economic similator therein set the standards of living, which in turn are set by the standards established in the 3E DMG and PH. Standards that WOTC admits are not realistic to begin with.

As a result everything has to be extrapolated from a base line that is itself greatly exagerated.

So nothing is taken as "realistic", just as a workable system that allows me to make decisions based on some kind of system that works.

Which is what I really want the economic system to do, work. So far it does. With bigger numbers than I would think, but with an "adventuring class" like we have in D&D it is probably needed to allow nobility to at least keep pace in terms of wealth.
 

Nyeshet said:
The main problem I've always had with the idea of a 'Magic Shop' or 'Magic Bazaar' in RaW D&D is the cost of living issues.

On the one hand you have the fact that every magic item created will decrease the xp of the creator, eventually to the point that they will surely fall a level if they make another item. If I recall correctly, the RaW do not allow a character to make a magic item if the xp cost will cause a loss of level.

Thus, a character - whether PC or NPC - cannot, by the RaW continuously run a magic item shop based upon their own creations. At best they must buy from others the items they wish to sell - in which case the cost of the items must rise as they are likely switch hands multiple times. At worst the shop will have to be seasonal. Perhaps it is run from mid autumn to mid spring, and during the other half of the year the supposedly scholarly wizard and magic item crafter is an adventurer / explorer, seeking either more magic items to sell or more xp so he can make more items of his own.

The second issue is that of thievery. Most spells needed to have a chance of successfully running a magic shop are prohibitively expensive and usually of high level. An adept or wizard might run a potions shop, but the first mid level rogue that comes through and their stock - especially of the more expensive potions - is gone. There are simply too many spells at those levels that would allow a thief stealthful entrance and exit without detection.

Until a wizard is high enough in level to cast Dimensional Lock (an 8th level spell, so about 15th level for the caster) and a few other defensive spells of similar level, there is no way to run a magic item shop without having regular losses each time a mid or higher level group of adventurers comes through.

Once 3rd level wizard spells are within easy reach of a rogue, bard, or other arcane skill monkey, keeping valuables safe is less about prevention and more about delay. The owner of the shop can set alarm spells, have illusions to confuse, perhaps even have a Mage's Private Sanctum in permanent effect such that the thieves at least cannot scry ahead of time to better plan their assault. But they cannot permanently place a summoned creature in the shop - nor even cast such a summoning to last the night, as the spell does not last long enough and bindings would be too costly to use each night. The best options are combining permanent walls of force with a permanent mage's private sanctum. But even this is not possible until 13th level.

Indeed, as best I can tell, only at 13th level does a magic shop become a real possibility. Envelop the entire shop in a permanent Mage's Private Sanctum and re-enforce the walls with permanent Walls of Force (including the ceilings and floors). Each night fill the shop with a Solid Fog and create another Wall of Force at the doorway. Make certain to also cast an Alarm over the entire shop's innards (or at least enough to cover every possible entrance point) to give warning should these be breached (mental warning to the caster, and possibly also audible warning at the shop itself, acting much like a car alarm in that it draws interest of those near by - hopefully including the town guard).

Yet even then, note that a simple 3rd level spell available to just about all casters (Dispel Magic) can destroy each and every one of these on a successful check. So a rock of at least 11-12th level with maxed out Use Magic Device and a wand of Dispel magic could permanently destroy all this work in a few minutes, then wander in at his leasure, steal as he pleases, and leave.

Unless more spells enter core that can deal with these issues, RaW makes a magic shop indefensable until pre-epic levels - and arguably not even then, as rogues and spells exist that even better get around defenses and spells.

You presume that they would have their shop full of magic items. Not a smart mage. There are all kinds of ways for a low level mage to make it difficult to find their items for sale.

For my games I essentially agree with you, since I don't allow spellcasters to make anything other than potions and scrolls until they reach 9th level, and serious items until 12th (armor, weapons, rods, staves, wands, really powerful Wondrous Items, etc...)

So in my games a shop owner is very unlikely to be lower than 12th level, but still could be. Even so, invisible chests, a certain secret chest spell, and other creative uses of spells such as Nystul's Magical Aura and others, getting robbed is still possible, but it won't be a simple snatch and grab.

So basically a mage has a shop for one reason. So potential customers can find them easier.

As for where items are kept until sold, that is a whole different story, and challenge for any would be thief to figure out.
 

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