What should the players be expected to know about the setting and their characters?

I mentioned this idea in another thread, but one of the things I did to build immersion was to have all my players help me fill in my world map.

I started out with a normal 8.5"x11" sheet of white paper. It had a mountain range and my starting city on it. By the time they were done, it was 3'x4', and had more places on it than we could ever really get to see in a given campaign, with much more beyond it that could be expanded upon.

These are the guide-lines I use:

1. Every player must put something on the map.
2. Whenever possible, make sure that it stays within the tone of the setting, as dictated by the GM
3. Give the GM something that could be an adventure hook, or just something cool about this place that gives the new location/region flavor (Ex: A mountain range thought to be impenetrable, and inhabited by a god with split personalities, An island that looks like a sandbar from the top, but is really a city within an under-sea mountain, that is being attacked by something in its lowest levels.)

This way, the players are immersed, because when they go there, they know about it already. And you can have your NPCs talk about other places. And it means that you as the GM don't have to do quite as much work.
 

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If they are a bunch of anti-social individuals that just trudge from dungeon to dungeon, only interacting with "civilian" society when resupplying, then don't expect much involvement in the world.

Yah, hence why I'm trying to put together a group by choosing people who have similar goals and gaming styles as myself and that we all get along well. It's a long-term plan from an idea I had a few years ago that I'm just now starting to put into action. Part of the plan involves getting involved in a community of gamers at a local gaming store, which I'm just starting to do now; in fact, first DM'ing night is tonight!
 

Players should be aware

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Players should take an interest

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they should know

<snip>

they should read

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players should make notes

<snip>

In my experience though it is very difficult to get players interested in any of this. Players just want to play, and it's a shame that more don't take notes or pay interest to the campaign setting.
This makes me wonder - why is it the case that players should do all this stuff, if it is not relevant to playing?

And my advice - if a GM wants his/her players to take an interest in the setting, make the setting an aspect of play.

One consequence of this is that the players will want to shape the setting, as part of the upshot of play. Let them.

I guess I have a lot of work to do to figure out what's vitally important

<snip>

I have naming conventions (by race and sub-culture), coinage exchange rates and pieces, commonly known and held politics and prejudices, common laws, known ranks and status, commonly known histories, myths, legends, heroes, a custom calendar, seasons, and moons and their phases.
Unless you're a good writer and the players are in the mood for reading someone else's fantasy story, I'm not sure that this is the best way to proceed.

Of course, you know your players and what they like. But to me at least, ingesting all that stuff doesn't sound like playing an RPG, it sounds like reading someone else's version of the appendices to LotR.

In my experience people concentrate on learning information once they realise they need it (once it has value). Before I play a game I have no idea what info I'm going to need, so setting information (for me) is mainly there to evoke atmosphere and colour.
Lots of source material does not create involvement; interaction, expectations of being able to influence the world and of fulfilling long time goals and long time plans does.
This rings very true to me. I like to run a game in which the mythology and history are rich and central to play. But this is achieved over time by having it matter to the players in the course of play.

Look at it this way: you are approaching the issue from the point of view of the PCs. And of course the PCs would know everything there is to know about everyday details of their world. But the players aren't their PCs. They are people in our world looking for a fun time. Like readers of a novel or viewers of a film, they will probably enjoy the setting more if it is gradually revealed over time, in a way that is relevant to the main elements of theme and plot (very view people start LotR by reading the appendices).

And because it is an RPG and not a novel or film, and so probably brings expectations of shared authorship, what will help with engagement is for the players to feel that they have a stake in the fiction. Whereas they have no stake in your setting description as a prelude to play.

At least, that's my experience.
 

An Example - My Setting Write-Up

At the risk of cross-posting (from the Paizo message boards), I just wrote up this description of my campaign world. Perhaps this will prove useful, if only as example of what not to do. :)

It's clear in other communications that Cauldron is the homebase, and they are supposed to come up a character concept that fits -- what exactly that is, is left purposefully open to their imaginations. I assume some super basic familiarity with Greyhawk/"3e default setting" concepts, which is right for my group. I've ripped off a lot of GHWiki content for the Sasserine and Hold of Sea Princes bits, but the Cauldron stuff is heavily modified/blanks filled in from what Paizo originally published.

Overview:

The isolated tropical city-states of Sasserine and Cauldron were colonized by the Hold of Sea Princes from CY 480-584. The piratical leaders of the Hold of Sea Princes kept the existence of these distant, jungle-bound cities a secret, to maintain their monopoly on the export of tropical fruits not found anywhere else in the Flanaess -- specifically, bananas, cacao (used to make chocolate), and durian. When the Hold of the Sea Princes was conquered by the Scarlet Brotherhood, its colonies reasserted their independence. The Hold is now embroiled in a many sided, anarchistic civil war, leaving Sasserine and Cauldron to their own devices.

The current year is CY 588.

----------------------------------------------------

The city of Cauldron is located in the caldera of a dormant volcano, at the eastern edge of the Hellfurnaces range of volcanoes. The Hellfurnaces separate the blasted, empty desert called the Sea of Dust (the former heartland of the Suel Imperium) to the west from the Amedio Jungle in the east. Cauldron is nicknamed the Shackled City for the source of its wealth -- tropical cash crops produced by slave labor on the surrounding plantations.

Cauldron's nearest important neighbor is the port city of Sasserine, about 20 miles away on Jeklea Bay of the Azure Sea.

Most of the founders of Cauldron and the majority of its population came from the north across Jeklea Bay, from the Kingdom of Keoland or the Hold of Sea Princes. Keoland is a large, powerful, feudal kingdom, which along with its possessions or former posessions, holds most of the Sheldomar Valley, the largest settled region of the western Flanaess continent. The Hold is -- or perhaps was would be more accurate -- a nation of pirates who broke off from Keoland ~CY 450. It is located at the southwest periphery of the Sheldomar Valley, separated from Keoland by the fetid Hool Marshes.

The largest race in Cauldron are Suel (think: Northern European). The Suel originally migrated to the Flanaess from across the Hellfurnace range of volcanoes, as refugees from the ancient (1000 years ago) magical Rain of Colorless Fire that ended a great war. Today, Suel form the bulk of the population in both Keoland and the Hold, and in a few other harsh, isolated regions where they long ago found refuge, like the Amedio Jungle, the Viking-dominated petty kingdoms of the Thillronian Peninsula of the far northeast (north of the Great Kingdom), and the totalitarian racist regime of the Scarlet Brotherhood that began on a rocky peninsula south of the Great Kingdom.

Many other Cauldron folk came from the eastern reaches of the Azure Sea. Oeridians (think: Southern Europeans) are the second largest group in Cauldron, mostly coming from the city-states of the Wild Coast (including the City of Greyhawk) or the Great Kingdom (now collapsed and divided among several successor states). Touv (think: Africans) from the tropical island continent of Hepmonaland are more common here than in other parts of the Flanaess; some were among the founding families, while others arrived later as traders or mercenaries.

When profitable diamond and obsidian deposits were discovered in the region, gnomes and dwarves from the Sheldomar Valley (Keoland and environs) flocked to Cauldron, and halflings came with them, at first mostly as cooks and washers. Later, gnomes, dwarves, and halfling became established as merchants and master artisans in the City.

Elves, half-elves, and half-orcs are relatively uncommon in Cauldron, and often are visitors from Sasserine.

The city proper has about 7500 adults, making a medium-sized city by medieval standards. The outlying areas -- mostly plantations but some smaller towns for freemen like the mining community of Redgorge and the waystation between Cauldron and Sasserine at the Lucky Monkey Inn -- have perhaps twice again that population.

The slaves who work the plantations that provide Cauldron's wealth were captured generations ago in the Amedio Jungle -- they are Amedi (Suel tribesmen who degenerated to a Stone Age culture after fleeing the fall of the Suel Imperium) and Olman (think: Aztec) tribesmen, whose jungle city-states mostly crumbled long ago. The lowland plantations around Sasserine and in the river valley in between grow sugarcane (which is processed into rum), bananas, and rice (mostly for local consumption, but also exported in bulk, mostly to the City of Greyhawk). The highland plantations around Cauldron grow coffee, cacao (for chocolate), and durian fruit.

The climate in the Cauldron region is humid and tropical, and the jungles and lowlands are plagued by malaria, dysentary, and wild animals including lions, tigers, and even dinosaurs. For this reason, few slaves attempt escape into the jungle, but those who have -- mostly Amedi -- have formed "hill folk" tribes that occassionally waylay travellers or even raid a settlement.

The city-dwellers, on their mountain top, escape the oppressive heat, disease, and other dangers of the jungles, and their water, from the caldera's lake, is magically kept free of disease. Slaves are not allowed in the city proper.

The major religions in Cauldron are Kord (Suloise god of strength), Wee Jas (Suloise goddess of magic and death, former patroness of the Suel Imperium), St. Cuthbert (Oeridian god of common sense and righteousness), and Pelor (Oeridian god of the sun and healing). The Church of Kord, arguing might makes right, loudly supports slavery, while the Church of Wee Jas quietly argues that the civilizing tradition of the "peculiar institution" is misunderstood by the outsiders who condemn it. The Churches of St. Cuthbert and Pelor discourage their members from owning slaves, but have a "gradualist" approach, calling for slaveowners to do manumission in their wills, or to declare the children of slaves to be born free. Worshippers of Fharlanghn (Oeridian god of travel and the open road), who are mostly elves or half-elves, call for immediate abolition and are rumored to be involved in helping escaped slaves make it out of the region. For that reason, the clergy of Fharlanghn has been denied permission to build a temple.

The local cuisine is primarly rice and beans plus sweet potatoes for the lower classes, with pork and chicken -- particularly satay, cooked on sticks with spicy peanut sauce -- as a treat for the poor and a staple for the middle class. The rich of Cauldron prefer seafood imported from Sasserine, the exotic sweets that Cauldron exports in bulk (chocolate, bananas, and durian), and food imported from Keoland or other overseas locales, like wine and cheese.

Cauldron is ruled by a mayor, who is chosen by consensus among the local nobles. As in the Hold of Sea Princes, nobility in Cauldron is more matter of being rich -- typically by owning plantations -- rather than inheritance and subservience to a liege lord. Feudalism does not exist here.

-----------------------------------------------------

Sasserine was founded in CY -124 by a group of pilgrims led by a priestess of Wee Jas named Sasserine, who was inspired to found the town after receiving a vision. After her death, the town gradually grew and expanded until it encompassed not merely the area inside the city walls, but a number of plantations lying on the outskirts. The success of the city made it a target for raids from pirates as well as attempts of subversion by the Scarlet Brotherhood, who first raided the city in CY 30.

After a time, a family named Teraknian, descended from Sasserine's lover, came to rule the city as lord mayors, taking advice from the clergy of Wee Jas and Kord. In CY 480, Orren Teraknian, the last of the lord mayors, began a reign of terror and launched a persecution of the church of Wee Jas in the city. Orren was deposed soon after after the city was conquered by the Sea Princes, who also conquered neighboring Cauldron. The Sea Princes kept the existence of Sasserine and Cauldron a secret from the rest of the Flanaess to guard their monopoly trades in chocolate and tropical fruit. The subjugation would last for a century, until the Sea Princes were forced to abandon Sasserine and Cauldron due to internal turmoil in their own lands as a result of the invasion by the Scarlet Brotherhood. The city-states are still recovering from its century-long domination and isolation.

Sasserine lays on the coast of the Amedio Jungle, close to the Hellfurnaces mountain range, and about 20 miles north of Cauldron. Its nearest neighbor across Jeklea Bay is the Hold of the Sea Princes. Sasserine is built on a series of islands which make water travel through the town a vital link for intra-city trade (like Venice).

Sasserine's economy is primarily based on sea trade, but some of the nobles own lowland plantations much like those of Cauldron, producing sugarcane and rice. The sea trade involves exporting rum, chocolate, and tropical fruits (bananas and durian) across the Azure Sea, and importing finished goods like clothing and arms & armor from more temperate lands, such as Keoland, the Wild Coast, Nyrond, and Ahlissa (the most important successor kingdom in the southern part of what was once the Great Kingdom). Piracy by ships of the Scarlet Brotherhood, their allies the Lordship of the Isles, and freebooters from the Hold, the Wild Coast, and Onnwall is a serious problem for Sasserine, but payoffs to Onnwall and the Holders, and occassional anti-piracy patrols by Keoland and to a lesser extent Nyrond and Ahlissa, keep the problem from shutting down the lucrative port.

The climate is generally tropical, with high temperatures and high humidity. Sea breezes attenuate the oppressive climate to some extent.

The city of Sasserine’s population is 15,650, with over three-quarters of the population being human. There is a small but sizable population of half-elves and halflings, with the rest of the population composed of minor amounts of dwarves, gnomes, elves, and other races.

Each districts of the city has a different patron deity: Wee Jas in the Noble District, Kord in the Champion's District, Saint Cuthbert in the Cudgel District, Fharlanghn in the Merchant's District, Olidammara (under an alias) in Shadowshore, and a syncretic religion composed of the worshippers of sea gods Procan, Xerbo, and Osprem in the Azure District. Religious toleration is prevalent throughout the city, although the churches of Wee Jas and Kord are in a state of cold war that has persisted since the persecution of the Jasadin by Orrin Teraknian.

The governance of Sasserine is a mix of oligarchy and direct democracy. The people are allowed to originate proposals and vote on them in great public meetings. Any resolutions passed by the people are sent to the seven-member Dawn Council, an oligarchy of noble aristocrats, which then decides whether or not to enact them. Law and order are for the most part relaxed in the town (partly in reaction against the somewhat harsh rule of the Sea Princes), and only the more egregious crimes such as murder and theft are actively pursued. Prostitution and the sale of exotic and potentially dangerous substances or creatures goes on more or less legally within the city limits (although the exact lassitude varies from district to district).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Hold of the Sea Princes is a realm south of Keoland. The region that would become the Hold of the Sea Princes was heavily settled by Suel during the Great Migrations. Eventually it came under the control of the Kingdom of Keoland. In the mid-fifth century CY, a pirate captain of noble Keoish blood led a rebellion against the Throne of the Lion. Distracted as they were by their northern wars, the Keoish could do little to prevent them from conquering the isles off the coast. In CY 453, King Tavish III of Keoland led an army through the hot, diseased Hool Marsh and to the city of Westkeep, where they lay siege. In the conflict that followed, Tavish III died, and his legendary family sword, Vilharian, was lost.

After the pirates lost (somewhat indecisively) the Battle of Jetsom Island to Keoland in CY 464, the pirate captains decided to settle down and be princes rather than brigands. The Hold of the Sea Princes began to flourish, with an economy based on vast plantations and the trade of slaves captured from the Amedio Jungle to the south.

More recently, however, Jeon II became the ruling prince of the land (in CY 577). Jeon II, along with the rulers of the Duchy of Berghof and Sybarate, began campaigning for slavery to be outlawed within the land. Perhaps their efforts would have met with some success if the Hold of the Sea Princes were not invaded by the Scarlet Brotherhood shortly thereafter.

In CY 584, an ambassador from the "Kingdom of Shar," resplendent in his red-hooded robe, arrived at the court of Jeon II, and demanded the Sea Princes submit to his government or be destroyed. When the assembled lords mocked him, he presented them with a list of 30 petty nobles, who were all (save three) assassinated before the following morning. Within a fortnight, the Hold of the Sea Princes belonged to the Great and Hidden Empire of the Scarlet Brotherhood, as red sailed galleys unloaded the cargos of Amedi, Olman, Touv, and humanoid slave-warriors up and down the coast.

However, the rule of the Scarlet Brotherhood has always been unstable, as discord among its own ranks and revolts by slaves, slave-warriors, and former freemen and nobles of the Hold sprang up everywhere. Sasserine and Cauldron took advantage of the chaos to quickly seize their own independence before the Scarlet Brotherhood even arrived as these secret colonies of the Hold.

Today the Hold of the Sea Princes is in chaos, ruled by a number of petty warlords and savage tribal leaders drawn from the ranks of escaped slaves. The Scarlet Brotherhood still controls the capital of Monmurg, as well as the islands of Flotsom, Jetsom, and Fairwind, but most of the mainland has slipped through its grasping fingers.
 

This makes me wonder - why is it the case that players should do all this stuff, if it is not relevant to playing?
Because I want it to be relevant to playing. As a quick and very concise for instance, I have four coinage systems (five, but the fifth is technically not a system). The PC's would only be familiar with one of them but would obviously know a foreign coin if they found one and would know the very basics of that coinage, ie. this is an orcish denomination.

Now how many scenarios can you come up with off the top of your head that could involve various coinage and lead to adventure? I can think of half a dozen off the top of my head as I'm writing this.

If the players are aware enough of the coinage system that they can clue in to things as we play, then that's a resource we both share. This enables me to run games completely on the fly, using the situations as they come up to develop story, character and adventure. And it enables the players to chase and create their own stories, characters and adventures without ever being forced down a particular road or path.

Such a simple thing can open up avenues of roleplaying that simply aren't available to a casual group who doesn't invest themselves in their character or the setting. Now, it might sound like a lot to know five coinage systems, but I should point out that I'm not asking people to recite them, just be aware they exist so that they can pick up on things during a game without me standing up and pointing, "THERE IS THE ADVENTURE!"

And my advice - if a GM wants his/her players to take an interest in the setting, make the setting an aspect of play.
Erm... that's what I'm trying to do. Chicken and egg. The players have to take an interest in the setting for me to be able to make it an aspect of play, otherwise it goes unnoticed.

One consequence of this is that the players will want to shape the setting, as part of the upshot of play. Let them.
Again, I'm totally on board with this, as long as it suits the character and tone of the setting. This requires them to become involved and interested in the setting in order to understand the tone and character of it.
 

This makes me wonder - why is it the case that players should do all this stuff, if it is not relevant to playing?

And my advice - if a GM wants his/her players to take an interest in the setting, make the setting an aspect of play.

For the same reasons that Kzach just posted.

Unless you're a good writer and the players are in the mood for reading someone else's fantasy story, I'm not sure that this is the best way to proceed.

Who said anything about a story? That's what the game is for. However for that to work, for the players and their characters to get properly involved, they need a framework from which to both make their characters and have a basic concept of the setting. They don't need to read the campaign setting just a couple A4 pages of info.

Of course, you know your players and what they like. But to me at least, ingesting all that stuff doesn't sound like playing an RPG, it sounds like reading someone else's version of the appendices to LotR.

Different styles is all. You don't need to offer up a cold tasteless appendices, you just need something so they know the current major events, major nations, who the gods are and a handful of other important details. Anything else can be raised in game.
 

Because I want it to be relevant to playing. As a quick and very concise for instance, I have four coinage systems (five, but the fifth is technically not a system). The PC's would only be familiar with one of them but would obviously know a foreign coin if they found one and would know the very basics of that coinage, ie. this is an orcish denomination.

Now how many scenarios can you come up with off the top of your head that could involve various coinage and lead to adventure? I can think of half a dozen off the top of my head as I'm writing this.

If the players are aware enough of the coinage system that they can clue in to things as we play, then that's a resource we both share...

<snip>

Yeah, totally. This is sweet. I don't think anyone's arguing about the value of the endpoint, what's being discussed is the process of getting there.

The coin example, great. Here's how I, personally, would handle that. Early in the game a PC is in the inn, or a shop, market, whatever, they go to pay for their stuff. The guy looks suspiciously at a few of the coins, hands them back and says 'I don't take these'. Cue handout on coinage. PC rummages around for some coins the guy will take, pays him, feels cheated at having a few GP in worthless currency and is on the lookout for such things.

Now (hopefully) next time a handful of coins comes into play they look at them a bit more carefully. Hmm, those coins look freshly minted, but rough, with a harsh insignia and foreign marks. There's your Orcish coin and cue for the players.

One easy, early 'colour' encounter clues the players in they have to watch out for the currency those cheating merchants round town sneak into your change. Then at some later point you make it a plot device. No reading required.

Of course, you know your players and are free to discard such advice. I'm gonna leave it there on this thread, but hope it gives you some food for thought.
 

Very interesting topic. What I've found work for me is to engage the players' interest in as early a stage as possible; of late, I've tended to ask players to vote for the kind of game they want to play. So, for instance, I would have a list of ideas like "remnants of mercenary band," "Romance of the Three Kingdoms-inspired struggles in a Chinese-influenced setting that is between emperors," "Castlevania/Ravenloft gothic fantasy D&D," and so on. When the players get to pick their favorite group concept, that tends to influence them to design characters that fit the theme rather than just creating setting-agnostic character concepts.

(Disclaimer: My players are awesome. I have not tested these results with not-awesome players.)

So from there we get a lot of the basics down as we discuss individual character concepts: "okay, you're an elf, elves are probably from here, which is a kingdom with strong military rule," or "What kind of priest are you looking at? Okay, here are the gods most relevant to that concept", and so on. This stage is totally a dialogue, where I encourage questions and offer suggestions. It isn't where I try to tell the players everything. Both I and the player try to focus on the most important things for them to know to feel comfortable.

Once everyone has character concepts settled, I'll usually write up a page or so of setup. Like "The estate of Andelac Borsari is set deep in the heart of rustic Calvera; as summer begins, his vineyards are healthy and promising a good year's harvest. This year he has had a few guests at his estate, such as [PC number one]..."

Beyond that, it's introducing information as it's needed, or as players ask for it. I really like the wiki format, since I've discovered it; it allows me to upload information as it becomes necessary, and it lets the players read it at their own pace when not at the table. (And in the age of smartphones, some players even check the wiki when at the table...)

I'm actually fine with relating a lot of information verbally at the table as well, because some players do better when you tell them a useful fact and they write it down for themselves than handing them a sheet. "Yes, you'd know that the gentleman in the white and green robes is a priest of the Queen of Hell, who's named Isreelve. She's one of the Lower Nine, but her worship is generally tolerated because it stresses punishing the wicked rather than destroying innocents. So, the evangelist seems to be talking about scourging your contact in the guild..." Plus, it gives us an excuse to talk about games over lunches or email or things like that.

A fictional world can have a lot of details, and usually it takes time and repetition to get the really important ones welded into players' brains. It took me over a decade, but my wife is a freaking encyclopedia where my game world is concerned.
 

One easy, early 'colour' encounter clues the players in they have to watch out for the currency those cheating merchants round town sneak into your change. Then at some later point you make it a plot device. No reading required.

Maybe I should encourage the first couple of levels of adventure towards those ends? Keep things local with small missions that help engage the players in the setting and explain through play the most important things about the setting.

Hmm. That's actually given me an idea...
 

Kzach,

I've been in your situation many times before and it is just highly unlikely that you will find a sizeable group of players who are as interested as you are in what you're creating for the setting. That said, I believe there's a place for your material. I suggest you look at creating a wiki to putting your information there. Point the players at the wiki and invite them to read what interests them. Depending on the wiki (I use Obsidian Portal myself), you may even be able to allow players to create their own pages. I find that this is much more palatable to the common player and easier for you to have a repository for your stuff without shoving a 15pp document in your players' faces.
 

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