What the heck is "Unfun"?

[gizmo33]

Creatures like this, along with the Rust Monster, and my least favorite, the Ethereal Filcher, have no other purpose other than to screw PCs.

Just like dragons. They sit on big piles of gold that my PC is supposed to have. That's just a neener neener encounter. And then if I try to sneak in and steal the gold the DM says something about how they can see invisible. It typically takes more than two sword-strikes to kill them (way more than two). That's just sadistic.

Then - get this - rather than go around and have to breathe the face of everyone attacking them, they simply unlease a cone of fire that gets everyone standing in the area at once! Talk about lazy!

And don't get me started about leeches, mosquitos, termites, and barnacles. I'm hoping that 4E will include a monster that spits out magic swords at the feet of people and then runs away. Sort of like a squid's ink ability.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Oh yeah, that's another thing that's unfun. Too much caution on the part of the PCs. I've not enjoyed some games because everything... happened... sooo... sloooooowly. Too much caution is caused by DMs that, very simply, have too much bad happen. Players do stuff. Bad happens. Result? Players learn never to do stuff.

I've never ever seen a game suffer beacuse players were too incautious. Sure we might all die, but at least it's interesting.

I concede that this is purely a matter of taste. But then aren't they all?

WotC market research will determine whose taste is in the majority.

 

[KarinsDad]

I've always considered waiting for the rogue to check for traps, run a spot check, run a listen check, etc, etc, etc, on Every. Single. Door. to be one of the absolute worst aspects of D&D ever.

Agreed. Doing that is boring, but it's not a problem with the DND rules.

I wasn't talking about checking doors, but being afraid to open them because of how nasty the things inside might be.

But I think this is a perfect place to note the difference between the straw man construction of my play style that kicked this thread off, and its reality. I don't mind there being danger opening the door. I don't mind it at all.

I just 1) want the "should we open the door" decision to take less time, and 2) want the penalties, while real, to not end the game for my character all based on that one door that most likely I have no choice but to open.

...

Faster resolution would make my objection less important, because the door opening ritual wouldn't be as long. And making the penalties less extreme than a dead character would let the players ignore the risk at times, and only search for traps on doors likely to be trapped, instead of every single door in the game.

I think the resolution to this is fairly easy (and should be mentioned in the 4E DMG), even in 3.5.

Talk with the players and get consensus on what is done when the group sees a door. What is done when the group is heading down a hallway, etc. In real life, if there were traps on doors or hallways, I would have my friend the Rogue check them out every time.

It's boring for the game, but it would be something the characters would do.

So, the DM rolls Search rolls at every door (and every once in a while in hallways) the players decide to open (presumably behind the screen) and only tells the Rogue player if he finds something. The DM barely has to glance at the dice, especially if there are no traps there.

The group of players and the DM decide ahead of time to not have the DM bother saying "You find nothing" every single time. Instead, the DM says that "the Fighter opens the door and sees...". Every time. Unless the players decide for a given door to change the standard plan.

This takes no appreciable time.

Only when the PCs notice anything unusual does the DM tell them about it. The rest of the time, the Rogue checks for traps, the Fighter opens the door, if there wasn't a trap, gaming continues. If there was a trap, it goes off in the Fighter's face.


To speed this up even more, the DM could roll every trap and every listen at the door for a given adventure ahead of time based on the skill of the PCs. He could have the results written in his notes (note: if the Rogue is unconscious for a given door, just roll it again for real with the lesser skill of the PC actually doing it).

But, this is a prime example of where the rules do not need changing.

Rolling at every door is a bad habit that gaming groups get into, it's not a bad rule. It's a habit easy to fix.

The DMG should list simple DM 101 ways to avoid common problems like this. It's not a fault of the rule system, it's a fault of the DM not recognizing the problem and fixing it.

 

[GreatLemur]

Ah.

Well, it seemed to me that you had missed

If you think something is trolling, report it and the Mods will look at it (and this certainly isn't a trolling thread)

If it is just a subject you don't care about, ignore the thread and don't post in it.​

If that isn't the case, I apologize. However, I politely disagree with your statement about an unhelpful and somewhat dishonest debate technique.

I could be wrong, but claims of players crying for "a Teifling paladin in Conan's Hyboria" strike me as an obvious straw man. I've got no problem with most of his actual points, but he's so bad at expressing and defending them that I find myself wanting to disagree with him.

 

[psionotic]

I'm hoping that 4E will include a monster that spits out magic swords at the feet of people and then runs away. Sort of like a squid's ink ability.

Whoa, dude! That would be awesome! Can I sign up now?!!!1111

 

[Grog]

I for one have seen a dozen or so comments that would back up what you so demandingly want proven!

Okay. Show them to me.

If it's so important to you, why don't you prove me wrong!!!

You can't prove a negative. That's one of the most basic tenets of logic.

 

[gizmo33]

Whoa, dude! That would be awesome! Can I sign up now?!!!1111

Think about it though, who would stand a better chance of surviving an encounter with a high level party, an ancient red dragon that tries to keep magic items away from the party, or a monster that spits them at the party? Just seems like a logical evolutionary niche to me.

 

[KarinsDad]

So, in your opinion, being well organized is a requirement for playing D&D?

Nope. Being well organized is a requirement for playing DND efficiently.

It doesn't matter if it is the DM, or another player. Having your materials together, knowing the abilities of your PC without looking them up, etc. is the hallmark of a prepared player.

Keeping track of arrows is so insignificant that I cannot believe that so many people have posted comments on it. If this is one of the important areas that WotC can improve with a new rule in 4E, then there is no need for a 4E. 3.5 is already wonderful beyond belief.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

Next time, will do if I have the time to search through all that dross to get to a point I read a week ago. I like this whole internet thing, but I do have other things to do occasionally. There is a large thread on I think its RPG.net but I may be mistaken that tackles the who anime, inuyasha "buster" sword controversy. Someone named Seigfried is used as an example of the wonderfulness of the whole nonsensical thing.

"It's totally true! On this other site, they're talking about an anime whose name I recognize! Some people say it's ridiculous!" What does that even have to do with your point that players don't want risk again?

My paraphrases are accurate enough in regards to some of the discussions I have had on this and other boards since 4e was announced. Not all the words are right, but the spirit certainly is.

This is a complete fabrication and I think you're smart enough to know that. If you're not being intentionally dishonest, produce one single link that expresses the spirit of "risk free adventuring". Just ONE. You've had all these conversations on these boards over the weeks since 4e was announced, so surely you can find ONE.

 

[psionotic]

Think about it though, who would stand a better chance of surviving an encounter with a high level party, an ancient red dragon that tries to keep magic items away from the party, or a monster that spits them at the party? Just seems like a logical evolutionary niche to me.

That's a good point... You always come across the all powerful creature who demands that you give up a magic item to let you pass (give you the map, release his prisoner, etc). Where are the cowardly, weakish monsters who give YOU magic items to not kill THEM?