What to do? Couple of questions that came up during a game

[Hypersmurf]

The actions that do and do not provoke are listed in Table 8-2. Go back a preuse this list and you will not find grapple among them.

You mean "Grapple - AOO: Yes" under the "Action Type: Varies" section of the table?

-Hyp.

 

[Liquidsabre]

You mean "Grapple - AOO: Yes" under the "Action Type: Varies" section of the table?

-Hyp.

That's correct. In the table Grapple does not list under regular actions but under Varies where it's footnote 7 goes on to read: "These attack forms substitute as a melee attack, not an action."

A grapple is not an action that "may" provoke", in fact it is not an "action" persay at all but a form of attack that "does" provoke.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A grapple is not an action that "may" provoke", in fact it is not an "action" persay at all but a form of attack that "does" provoke.

You can say the same about unarmed strikes or ranged attacks. They're not actions, they're a form of attack that provokes an AoO.

But not if I'm not in a threatened area. That's part of the definition of an AoO - no threat, no AoO.

If I fire an arrow at you from across the room, it's a form of attack that provokes an AoO. But who's going to hit me? Nobody threatens me!

-Hyp.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Hmmm, thanks Hyper. Great to hash this out and I do appreciate it!

I went and reread the definition of AoO in the glossary and I see your point. I was of the mind that the special attacks circumvented this normal requirement for threatening. I can see this isn't the case. Phew, Ogres just got alot more nasty!

Thanks again for putting up with me Hyper!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Thanks again for putting up with me Hyper!

I was about to start using even more italics and exclamation points - you're getting off lightly!

-Hyp.

 

[Liquidsabre]

I was about to start using even more italics and exclamation points - you're getting off lightly!

-Hyp.

I know!

In all honesty I wouldn't blame you if you stuck my posts on the end of a sharp-pointy thing and put it up as a warning to others!

 

[Steverooo]

When the Ogre reaches out to grapple you, his arm has entered your space, and provokes an AoO. A horse doesn't take up the whole 10x10 area all at once, but can attack through it by turning. The Ogre likewise. He occupies a 10x10 area, and can be attacked at any point within it.

So the Fighter doesn't have to be within 5'. He has to be within 5' of the 10x10 area. If the ogre reaches for him (with a hand, or a foot stomp, or whatever) the part that enters the Fighter's square is subject to an AoO whether the rest of him moves or not.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Um.

I agree that you can attack any square that compose the 10'*10' space occupied by an Ogre. If that Ogre tries to grapple you from 10' away (because he has reach), you can't take your AoO against him. I think that was the whole point of Hyp's post.

(F)ighter can AoO (O)gre
OOF
OO

(F)ighter can't AoO (O)gre
OO_F
OO

AR

 

[Ferox4]

I understand Hypersmurf's point, however with this interpreation of the grappling AoO rules all creatures with 10' or more reach essentially have Improved Grab (assuming they initiate a grapple from 10' or more away). That seems a bit off to me.

The fact that there are specific feats designed to NOT provoke AoOs when starting a grapple makes me believe that, despite Hypersmurf's correct examination of the rules, in the absence of such feats, the grappler DOES provoke an AoO.

Spirit vs. letter of the law.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Spirit vs. letter of the law.

Spirit of the law?

Turn! Turn and begone!

-Hyp.