D&D 4E What to do with 4th Edition

[glass]

If I were redesigning the system, I would sell heroic tier as the base sytem and each tier after as an expansion. Most campaigns never get past level 10, so why sell the whole game to everyone that goes beyond that?

I feel like that would be a self-fullfilling prophecy. Not being included in the base game would mean fewer people would play it, which would mean even less support, which would mean even fewer people would play it, and so on.....

_
glass.

 

[Aldarc]

What if we went with multiple simplified classes instead of big tent pole classes?

I’ve been kicking around this idea in my mind for a while where you have a bunch of simplified class that can fit on a few pages and only cover 10 level, then at level 10 you pick up a Paragon Path and at level 20 an Epic Destiny, each of them would thus be independent and you’d only have to worry about that one part of your progression? Some classes would have a few choices, while some you just give you a specific thing every level you can choose a thing.

Basically, so that, once you’ve picked your archetype, it’s easier to level up and you don’t need to look through a ton of books? And multiclassing can be done through swapping pieces or creating bespoke classes.

Other points of simplification I would do is make it so you can’t ever have more than 1 reaction power beyond the standard Opportunity Attack and I would replace Utilities by a standard list of Skill Powers that everybody picks from. Reaction would basically be like Utility in that they’re class dependent and you’d pick from a few options. You wouldn’t be able to rack up a bunch of them like in 4e Core.

Just random musing is all.



We could create a new design of easy-to-read blocks.

You should check out Shadow of the Demon Lord (and eventually Shadow of the Weird Wizard). Across 10 levels, a character will pick a Novice Path, an Expert Path, and a Master Path. However, a lot of the math is actually flattened.

 

[eyeheartawk]

The two big problems I've noticed.

1. Purists basically want a compatible clone of 4E. Even if legal that's 1000 odd pages some poor bastard has to write it. Even if you had 5 people that's about 200 pages each. For free. That's to many logistics wise.

2. To many chieftains not enough indians.

What I would do is a stripped down (level 1-5, 4-8 classes) foundation. Use an existing version of D&D or d20 and add in some sort of bounded accuracy.

If you build your foundation it's a starting point doesn't matter if it's missing a heap of stuff that can come later.

You could also look at Pathfinder or Star Wars Saga Edition for ideas.

I would also revamp and simplify the classes. Probably make the powers universal by source and the actual classes modify what you can do with them. Rangers and Tempest fighters could use the same powers the difference is via the class.

This is mostly to reduce feat and power bloat and get something playable done.

In my clone which was kind of advanced B/X using elements of 3E and 4E I actually used the 4E engine to power it but not a single 4E class, power source or anything like that. You could easily gut 5E or whatever of its skeliton and hang a 4E retro game in that (or B/X or whatever).

Try and produce something like Basic Fantasy a clone of B/X level 1-20 clocks in at 100 pages. Less is more espicially the amount of work one has to do. Being a purist is one thing but it won't write anything.

Sure.

Except now you're making a different, new game. If you want to start a cohesive, vibrant community around 4e going forward I don't see how making 13th Age part 2 is going to achieve that. Where's the evergreen 13th Age community? We hear alot from them?

 

[Zardnaar]

Sure.

Except now you're making a different, new game. If you want to start a cohesive, vibrant community around 4e going forward I don't see how making 13th Age part 2 is going to achieve that. Where's the evergreen 13th Age community? We hear alot from them?

It's been ten years since 4E went out of print.

If someone bothered starting writing back then all they have to do is write 1/3rd of a page per day to clone 4E. A small team only has to do two pages per month.

I'm guessing no one did.

And you can't actually clone 4E exactly.

So either produce something or spend the next ten years expecting someone else to do something.

That's your options. That 1000 pages that's only the core rules. Hence why I think you want to condense that if you want anything beyond the bare minimum.

That's how OSR did it started small snowballed from there. To many chiefs not enough Indians.

 

[eyeheartawk]

That's how OSR did it started small snowballed from there. To many chiefs not enough Indians.

Except it didn't really.

The ball "got rolling" in the sense that Necromancer published some 3e modules with 1st edition design elements and Castles & Crusades, but the real OSR didn't start until OSRIC came out. That was the big splash. While it wasn't an "exact" restatment of AD&D (there were some minor changes to shield it from possible legal repercussions, since nobody had tested the OGL in this way before) it's like, 99% the old game. The target doesn't have to be complete 100% verisimilitude, but it's got to be pretty close. You want people to recognize the old game, keep backwards compatibility with existing 4e stuff and also immediately create a market for more 4e stuff that can work for people who play the old original game or this new game you just made.

And yeah, there is a lot of material but it doesn't have to be all done at once. You don't have to put all the PHBs in one book at one time, for example. Not going to lie and say it isn't alot of work.

So either produce something or spend the next ten years expecting someone else to do something.

Very true.

The fact that somebody hasn't, and the lack of a prominent 4e community in the years since its discontinuation I don't think are unrelated phenomena.

 

[Zardnaar]

Except it didn't really.

The ball "got rolling" in the sense that Necromancer published some 3e modules with 1st edition design elements and Castles & Crusades, but the real OSR didn't start until OSRIC came out. That was the big splash. While it wasn't an "exact" restatment of AD&D (there were some minor changes to shield it from possible legal repercussions, since nobody had tested the OGL in this way before) it's like, 99% the old game. The target doesn't have to be complete 100% verisimilitude, but it's got to be pretty close. You want people to recognize the old game, keep backwards compatibility with existing 4e stuff and also immediately create a market for more 4e stuff that can work for people who play the old original game or this new game you just made.

And yeah, there is a lot of material but it doesn't have to be all done at once. You don't have to put all the PHBs in one book at one time, for example. Not going to lie and say it isn't alot of work.


Very true.

The fact that somebody hasn't, and the lack of a prominent 4e community in the years since its discontinuation I don't think are unrelated phenomena.

I don't think the numbers are there either. Failing that the dedication hell Gary wrote the 1E dmg in 2 years.

You can't really do a 4E OSRIC though duevto the gsl.

 

[eyeheartawk]

You can't really do a 4E OSRIC though duevto the gsl.

Right. Which is why it would have to be restated under the OGL. Which is alot of work, agreed. You'd have to strip it of product identity (which you'd have to do anyway under the OGL too) and then restate the mechanics differently enough to not be a copy and paste, and then while you're at it would incorporate the errata and fixed monster math etc. That's a real tall order, and probably why nobody has done this. I mean, I get that nobody wants to do that for years to end up with a game that isn't really "yours" in the traditional sense.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

I feel like that would be a self-fullfilling prophecy. Not being included in the base game would mean fewer people would play it, which would mean even less support, which would mean even fewer people would play it, and so on.....

Who or what's not being included? Higher level play? Not everyone makes it to those levels. This became more apparent late in the 4e cycle when WotC started refocusing more on Heroic tier and never got around to more Epic stuff. Almost everyone begins with lower levels. That is how they learn the game, and is the natural starting point before reaching higher levels, which usually takes a long time.

So why have all that late-game material taking up space in the base game when a) no one is going to have a use for it when they start playing, b) may never have a use for it if their games never take them past a certain level, and c) that space could be reclaimed to provide more support within the tier most people will be playing? No one is going to cry "where's the rest of the game?" any more than they already do. But that's because they feel as if D&D isn't complete unless it includes everything they've ever seen, read, or want from anything ever published for it.

And may I remind you, this approach is neither new or unpopular.

 

[Jer]

If I were redesigning the system, I would sell heroic tier as the base sytem and each tier after as an expansion. Most campaigns never get past level 10, so why sell the whole game to everyone that goes beyond that? Focus on the heroic tier for your entry level and casual players. That's nearly everyone. Then, for the long-term, dedicated crowd and advanced players, sell the next bundles for Paragon and Epic level play. Each one builds on the previous set.

I thought at the time that it was a mistake to take the game to level 30 and also leave certain classes/races out of the core book. If they'd released a game through level 20 and included all of the the core classes and races that everyone wanted to see, I think there would have been less backlash at release.

 

[Retreater]

I thought at the time that it was a mistake to take the game to level 30 and also leave certain classes/races out of the core book. If they'd released a game through level 20 and included all of the the core classes and races that everyone wanted to see, I think there would have been less backlash at release.

From my angle, the level 20-30 tier was basically just the equivalent of like 15-20th levels in previous editions. All the same spells, powers, class abilities, etc., were spread out to levels 20-30. So it was just a naming contrivance. Again, just my opinion.