D&D 4E What to do with 4th Edition

[Jacob Lewis]

Just wondering if there are enough on ENWorld who have the stuff and no how to play that a virtual game or two could be done. Sounded like it might be appreciated by some.

Sorry, I saw someone answer part of your question but I never got around to this.

My favorite thing to do as a GM is to teach new people (new to the hobby, or new to the system) how to play. I did this in person with the Star Wars RPG for a couple years and had a blast. And I would certainly love to do the same with 4e again. I had hoped the pandemic would have calmed down in my area eventually, and was gearing up to do things in person again. Alas, that day still has not come for me. So I started thinking digital again.

The thing with doing it digitally (for me) is I like to have things prepared. Its much easier for people (in general) to be distracted online and lose focus, especially if they're waiting on someone else. I want to be able to spend the least amount of time doing upkeep and looking for stuff that takes away from play, both online and in-person.

That's how I am, and frankly why I have no problem calling myself "professional", even if I'm not being paid. I feel personally shamed if I can't/don't present myself as efficient, effective, and entertaining in my capacity as a GM to other people, especially strangers at a game table. Just another one of my debilitating quirks, I suppose.

Personal stigmas aside, if I were to suggest running a 5e (or most other editions) game right now, I could (have) purchase as much content as I needed, and get things up and running in a short amount of time. 4th edition, though... the edition that was made (and often accused) for grids and vtts and online play...? Nah! Not that easy. Not easy at all. Especially when you got so little to work with and little to support to help out.

For the record, I'm not trying to be argumentative, or pessimistic, or whatever people want to say so they can dismiss me. I'm sharing my perspective so whoever reads my comments can (maybe) get a better sense of where I'm coming from. I don't want to be unhappy, or even complaining about things. But I'm not going to settle for anything that doesn't make me happy when I think it can (or could) be possible. I know I can be my own worst enemy at times, but I'm also my biggest (and often only) advocate.

 

[Garthanos]

So I went back and updated everything yesterday to give Foundry another look. The 4e ruleset is being developed slowly by one person (as far as I can tell), but it seems to be coming along now. Putting all the details by hand is going to be a choir, but nothing I can't handle.

Are you a member of the 4e Discord Server there are others working on things besides the official release.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Are you a member of the 4e Discord Server there are others working on things besides the official release.

Yes, I have a membership.

 

[Undrave]

Yeah, but I don't know that I want a "clone". I mean, they left the game pretty messed up. Why would I want to copy of that? No. I want to be able to clean it up and improve it. I want to be able to ditch what I don't like about it, including what I don't like about D&D. I don't even care if it's called D&D at that point. I just want a usable engine with mechanics that make the game work better. (Of course, I have ideas but it makes the old material useless, and that turns off a lot of people who may otherwise be interested. So I don't bother discussing it.)

I'm wondering if it would be possible to just create new simplified classes (the amount of sheer STUFF in classes was the big issue, IMO) and a new list of feats and rituals, but make the math line up so that we could just use any 4e monsters or adventure?

 

[thullgrim]

I’ve run 4e on Roll20. It worked but wasn’t pleasant. I have the Foundry installation but haven’t looked at it in detail except to determine that it would probably meet most of my needs. Since I run all my online games in Foundry I’d rather use it, even lacking some functionality, than constantly be changing VTTs.

 

[Undrave]

I'm talking about classes specifically. You can argue about compatibility all you want. But a blueprint needs to set the tone, as well as the standards for everything moving forward. So is the fighter going to be the weapon master and all classes follow the same structure? Or should it be more like the knight and the slayer, which offers a simpler option for players without sacrificing its effectiveness compared to other classes? Or come up with something else?

On the one hand, I like the consistency and expansiveness of (sure let's call it) Core. And on the other, I like the completeness and minimalist approach of the Essentials line. I know I can mix them (and WotC was real adamant about that until they decided Essentials was the key), but I didn't like that. I prefer to keep things clean and not muddy the waters. I may be too rigid that way, but that's just another one of my issues.

What if we went with multiple simplified classes instead of big tent pole classes?

I’ve been kicking around this idea in my mind for a while where you have a bunch of simplified class that can fit on a few pages and only cover 10 level, then at level 10 you pick up a Paragon Path and at level 20 an Epic Destiny, each of them would thus be independent and you’d only have to worry about that one part of your progression? Some classes would have a few choices, while some you just give you a specific thing every level you can choose a thing.

Basically, so that, once you’ve picked your archetype, it’s easier to level up and you don’t need to look through a ton of books? And multiclassing can be done through swapping pieces or creating bespoke classes.

Other points of simplification I would do is make it so you can’t ever have more than 1 reaction power beyond the standard Opportunity Attack and I would replace Utilities by a standard list of Skill Powers that everybody picks from. Reaction would basically be like Utility in that they’re class dependent and you’d pick from a few options. You wouldn’t be able to rack up a bunch of them like in 4e Core.

Just random musing is all.

One of the things that really appealed to me is the visual presentation of the game itself. Rather than plain paragraphs full of fluffy description, or shorthand notes for key stats, 4e gave us color-coded elements and easy-to-read stat blocks for every vital piece of the game. Being unable to adhere to that dress-code, so to speak, takes away from the authenticity and cohesion of that system. That probably explains why a lot of 3rd party products looked so bland.

We could create a new design of easy-to-read blocks.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

What if we went with multiple simplified classes instead of big tent pole classes?
<snip>
We could create a new design of easy-to-read blocks.

There's a hundred things that could be streamlined or simplified in 4e. There was a lot of needless redundancy, like individual powers for different classes (or different levels of a class) that had virtually the same effects. There were also a lot of extra mechanics and resources to do specifically one thing, like milestones and Action Points. Healing surges were underutilised as a built-in resource management tool for players powers and abilities.

If I were redesigning the system, I would sell heroic tier as the base sytem and each tier after as an expansion. Most campaigns never get past level 10, so why sell the whole game to everyone that goes beyond that? Focus on the heroic tier for your entry level and casual players. That's nearly everyone. Then, for the long-term, dedicated crowd and advanced players, sell the next bundles for Paragon and Epic level play. Each one builds on the previous set.

One of these days I'm just gonna spill the beans on all the redesign ideas I've been working in my head for the last couple decades.

 

[Undrave]

There's a hundred things that could be streamlined or simplified in 4e. There was a lot of needless redundancy, like individual powers for different classes (or different levels of a class) that had virtually the same effects. There were also a lot of extra mechanics and resources to do specifically one thing, like milestones and Action Points. Healing surges were underutilised as a built-in resource management tool for players powers and abilities.

I wouldn't be above copy-pasting powers from one class to another, though I would just repeat them for ease of reference. Maybe have the class feature that triggers off of certain keywords being the big difference that would make a power attractive for different classes.

If I were redesigning the system, I would sell heroic tier as the base sytem and each tier after as an expansion. Most campaigns never get past level 10, so why sell the whole game to everyone that goes beyond that? Focus on the heroic tier for your entry level and casual players. That's nearly everyone. Then, for the long-term, dedicated crowd and advanced players, sell the next bundles for Paragon and Epic level play. Each one builds on the previous set.

Not a bad idea at all. After all, the DMG were practically built on this principle.

 

[Zardnaar]

The two big problems I've noticed.

1. Purists basically want a compatible clone of 4E. Even if legal that's 1000 odd pages some poor bastard has to write it. Even if you had 5 people that's about 200 pages each. For free. That's to many logistics wise.

2. To many chieftains not enough indians.

What I would do is a stripped down (level 1-5, 4-8 classes) foundation. Use an existing version of D&D or d20 and add in some sort of bounded accuracy.

If you build your foundation it's a starting point doesn't matter if it's missing a heap of stuff that can come later.

You could also look at Pathfinder or Star Wars Saga Edition for ideas.

I would also revamp and simplify the classes. Probably make the powers universal by source and the actual classes modify what you can do with them. Rangers and Tempest fighters could use the same powers the difference is via the class.

This is mostly to reduce feat and power bloat and get something playable done.

In my clone which was kind of advanced B/X using elements of 3E and 4E I actually used the 4E engine to power it but not a single 4E class, power source or anything like that. You could easily gut 5E or whatever of its skeliton and hang a 4E retro game in that (or B/X or whatever).

Try and produce something like Basic Fantasy a clone of B/X level 1-20 clocks in at 100 pages. Less is more espicially the amount of work one has to do. Being a purist is one thing but it won't write anything.

 

[CapnZapp]

There's a hundred things that could be streamlined or simplified in 4e. There was a lot of needless redundancy, like individual powers for different classes (or different levels of a class) that had virtually the same effects.

Just like with Pathfinder 2.

This catalog style of game design is the worst.