D&D 4E What to do with 4th Edition

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
This has got me thinking now...

What if we could fold "daily powers" into "encounter powers" and just have "powers" you could power up by spending your surges? For example, you have a weapon attack power that normally does "2[W] and slides the target 1 square". But if you expend a heroic surge, it becomes "3[W] damage and knocks the target down" and adds the Reliable keyword (just an example off the top of my head). Fewer powers with greater versatility. Thoughts?
 

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I love the idea of a 4e OGL base being out there, as 4e is just such an amazing platform to develop an even better game.

But, if original 4e play is what people are looking for then seems like a good foundry ruleset (exists?), PDF to Foundry, and offline character builder to Foundry character sheet would do the job. I'm pretty sure the community could post their own new creation monsters, adventures, etc. without issues as well. Repuposing new adventures from PF2 and 5e is not too difficult if you want fresh adventure content.
 

Undrave

Hero
This has got me thinking now...

What if we could fold "daily powers" into "encounter powers" and just have "powers" you could power up by spending your surges? For example, you have a weapon attack power that normally does "2[W] and slides the target 1 square". But if you expend a heroic surge, it becomes "3[W] damage and knocks the target down" and adds the Reliable keyword (just an example off the top of my head). Fewer powers with greater versatility. Thoughts?
Just treat them like Smites and let people spend the extra Surges on a hit. Adjust accordingly, with higher level powers demanding more surges. 4e is about exciting encounters after all.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Of course you can. You cannot do it under the GSL of course, but you could not doing anything under 1e's open licence because it did not have one at all. You would do 4e using the OGL, SRD precedents, and rewriting, in exactly the same way OSRIC did 1e.


That is mostly true, but not universally so IMNSHO (in both directions). On the one hand, standard action point-to-point teleport came online at about 29th level, which was much higher level than in previous editions even taking into account the level range being multiplies by 1.5. OTOH, there was nothing much like the "once per day when you die" ED powers in previous editions at any level.


IME and IMNSHO, making your "do fun stuff" resource the same as you "do not die" resource just leads to a lot less "fun stuff" happening. Also, your proposal basically ends in-combat healing. There is no way any leader is going to be able to activate their * Word powers more than a couple of times per day. EDIT: Your idea regarding the generalised Skill keyword is great, though.

ETA: Missed a bit:


May I remind you that while B apparently sold gangbusters, I not so much, to the point that is was completely redesigned rather than reprinted when the rest of BECM were compiled into the RC.

_
glass.

Bare minimum you have to rename all the powers and you can't use NADs.

When I did mine I essentially copy and pasted the 4E engine, used micro feats mostly copy and pasted from 3E/4E, and I wrote a small bestiary.

Revised it when 5E landed stealing it's skill system and bounded accuracy.

Didn't write any spells etc you can use 3.5 or Pathfinder.

I stole the xp charts from basic and you add the 5E proficiency bonus to all saves.

It's a huge amount of work and that was more editing due to the amount of copy and pasting. I used a lot of 4E and 5E math in the engine mining those editions plus SWSE and Pathfinder.

Goal was to do as little work as possible and even that was rough. That was also just a word document.

It's in no state to be published and I stole like a mofo.
 

eyeheartawk

#1 Enworld Jerk™
I'm pretty sure the community could post their own new creation monsters, adventures, etc. without issues as well. Repuposing new adventures from PF2 and 5e is not too difficult if you want fresh adventure content.
Can you though?

Under what license would you publish it?

I don't think you can just make a new adventure under the OGL and say "It's for the 4th edition of the world's most popular roleplaying game". I think the GSL makes that real precarious.
 

Retreater

Legend
What I think you'd do is start with the extremely similar chassis of PF2. Then make Encounter Powers a version of Focus Powers. Then make the feats to duplicate other powers. Like racial powers would be ancestry feats.
Make a couple simple changes to the way combat works and I think you've got a solid hybrid. I think you could probably do a basic 1-5 level game in a couple weeks in this method.
 

Emryys

Explorer
So on the one hand I see the space for a 4e retroclone and have lamented before that none of them are quite right - though I've been looking at ORCUS off and on since the last time this subject came up and it was pointed out to me - it looks pretty good. Home
ORCUS is probably the closest for a 4E baseline to start from... then folks can publish 'OGL alternates' incorporating their 'fixes'... but at least it creates a central hub similar to OSRIC
 



Composer99

Adventurer
Wanna test it via C&D?
There's no call to get shirty. Those save scores are Open Game Content. Also, ORCUS is using them.

I'll add WotC hasn't gotten on Paizo's case about, say, aasimar, which although not "Product Identity" are unequivocally not Open Game Content - they're purely creations of TSR for Planescape and don't appear as Open Game Content in the OGL. They've been part of Pathfinder for 10 years now across both editions.
 

Retreater

Legend
I'd be flattered to get a C&D if I were working on a 4e project. At least it would mean WotC was paying attention to the 4e community. ;)
But I don't think they would/could do it if you based it on an existing game - Pathfinder, 13th Age, etc.
The next step for be is really looking at ORCUS and see how it plays. But the more I'm thinking about it - I'm thinking PF2 with house rules will accomplish what I want.
 

glass

(he, him)
I don't think you can just make a new adventure under the OGL and say "It's for the 4th edition of the world's most popular roleplaying game". I think the GSL makes that real precarious.
AIUI, the GSL does literally nothing unless you actually use it and accept it terms. If you do not, you can do exactly whatever you could have done had it never existed (under whatever other licences may exist or normal copyright law).

_
glass.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
For those of you who continue to think Orcus is a viable option, I invite you to take a look at the copyright notice (section 15) of its OGL.

https://sanglorian.github.io/orcus/

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Spells & Spellcraft Copyright 2002, Fantasy Flight, Inc.
Spheres of Power © 2014 Drop Dead Studios LLC, Author Adam Meyers
Swords of Our Fathers Copyright 2003, The Game Mechanics.
System Reference Document 5.1 Copyright 2016, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford, Chris Perkins, Rodney Thompson, Peter Lee, James Wyatt, Robert J. Schwalb, Bruce R. Cordell, Chris Sims, and Steve Townshend, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, John D. Rateliff, Thomas Reid, James Wyatt, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
The Archives of Nethys. Copyright 2010, Blake Davis.
The Avatar’s Handbook, Copyright 2003, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Authors Jesse Decker and Chris Tomasson
The Book of Experimental Might, © 2008, Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
The Book of Fiends, Copyright 2003, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Authors Aaron Loeb, Erik Mona, Chris Pramas, and Robert J. Schwalb.
The Book of Hallowed Might. © 2002, Monte J. Cook.
The Complex of Zombies, Copyright 2007, Justin Alexander. Published by Dream Machine Productions.
The Diamond Throne Copyright 2003 Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
The Grand OGL Wiki, Grand Wiki - Android and iOS Game Reviews - Gmamber Reviews Copyright 2008-2009 Purple Duck Creations; Authors: Mark Gedak, Alex Schroeder, Joel Arellano, George Fields, Yair Rezek, Mike Whalen, Shane O’Connor, Mike Rickard, John Whamond, Bill Browne, Eric Williamson, Slatz Grubnik, Charles R. Wenzler Jr.
The Hunt: Rise of Evil World Book Copyright 2002, Mystic Eye Games
The Hypertext d20 SRD Copyright 2004, Jans W Carton; transferred to BoLS Interactive, 2016.
The Iconic Bestiary: Classics of Fantasy, © 2005, Lions Den Press; Author Ari Marmell
The Psychic’s Handbook, Copyright 2004, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
The Realms of Chirak copyright 2010 by Nicholas Bergquist, Zodiac Gods Publishing
The Shaman’s Handbook Copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing; Author, Steve Kenson
The Taan copyright 2001, Sovereign Press
The Tide of Years Copyright 2001, Michelle A. Brown Nephew
The Tome of Horrors III, © 2005, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene
The Unholy Warrior’s Handbook, Copyright 2003, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Robert J. Schwalb
Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors: Scott Greene, with Clark Peterson, Erica Balsley, Kevin Baase, Casey Christofferson, Lance Hawvermale, Travis Hawvermale, Patrick Lawinger, and Bill Webb; Based on original content from TSR.
Tome of Secrets, Copyright 2009, Adamant Entertainment, Inc. Authors: Walt Ciechanowski and Gareth-Michael Skarka.
Touched by the gods Copyright 2001, Atlas Games
Traps & Treachery Copyright 2001, Fantasy Flight, Inc.
Twilight of Atlantis Copyright 2002, Avalanche Press
Twin Crowns: Age of Exploration Fantasy Copyright 2001, Living Imagination Inc.
Ultramodern4 ©2012 Dias Ex Machina; Author: Chris Dias
Undead Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment Group
Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.
Villains, Copyright 2002, Bastion Press, Inc.
Vlad the Impailer Copyright 2002, Avalanche Press
War Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment Group
Way of the Witch Copyright 2002, Citizen Games; Authors Janet Pack, Jean Rabe, Megan Robertson, and Christina Stiles
END OF LICENSE
No thanks. This is not the way.
 


Sanglorian

Explorer
For those of you who continue to think Orcus is a viable option, I invite you to take a look at the copyright notice (section 15) of its OGL.

No thanks. This is not the way.

It works out to be three pages, in 8 point font. Without it, I wouldn't have most of the 300 pages of content.

But you're not the only person to raise concerns about the length of Section 15. At some point I might go back and separate out the sources for the Orcus core rules, so people who are making their own content for Orcus can use a much shorter Section 15.
 

kenada

Legend
For those of you who continue to think Orcus is a viable option, I invite you to take a look at the copyright notice (section 15) of its OGL.

Home

COPYRIGHT NOTICE.
Open Game License v 1.0a Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Orcus Copyright 2021-2022.
Orcus characters by Capellan Copyright 2022.
13 Barbarian Talents and Feats. © 2019, Jon Brazer Enterprises, Author: Richard Moore.
13 Cleric Domains and Spells. © 2018, Jon Brazer Enterprises, Author: Richard Moore.
13 Fighter Talents and Maneuvers. © 2017, Jon Brazer Enterprises, Author: Richard Moore.
13 True Ways. Copyright 2014, Fire Opal Media, Inc.; Authors: Rob Heinsoo, Jonathan Tweet, Robin D. Laws.
13 Wizard Cantrips and Spells. © 2018, Jon Brazer Enterprises, Author: Richard Moore.
13th Age Archmage Engine. Copyright 2013-2016, Fire Opal Media. Author: Chad Dylan Long, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Rob Heinsoo, Ryven Cedyrlle, Kenneth Hite, Kevin Kulp, ASH LAW, Cal Moore, Steve Townshend, Rob Watkins, and Rob Wieland.
13th Age Bestiary. Copyright 2014, Fire Opal Media and Pelgrane Press Ltd; Authors: Ryven Cedyrlle, Rob Heinsoo, Kenneth Hite, Kevin Kulp, ASH LAW, Cal Moore, Steve Townshend, Rob Watkins, Rob Wieland.
13th Age Copyright 2013, Fire Opal Media. Authors: Rob Heinsoo and Jonathan Tweet. Edited by Cal Moore. Additional editing by Simon Rogers. The 13th Age RPG and supplements are published under exclusive license to Pelgrane Press.
4SRD Contributors.
A Complete Guide to Drow Copyright 2002, Goodman games
A5E.tools. Copyright 2022, EN Publishing. www.a5e.tools
Advanced Bestiary. © 2004, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author: Matt Sernett.
Advanced Player’s Guide, © 2010, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn
Advanced Player’s Guide, Copyright 2004, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Advanced Player’s Manual, Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing: Author Skip Williams.
Alchemy & Herbalists Copyright 2002, Bastion Press
Anger of Angels. © 2003, Sean K Reynolds.
Apex © 2013 Dias Ex Machina; Author: Chris Dias
Arcana - Societies of Magic Copyright 2002, Green Ronin
Armies of the Abyss Copyright 2002, Green Ronin
Battle Magic: the Eldrich Storm Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures, Copyright 2012-2014, Flatland Games, llc.
Black Flags, Copyright 2002 Avalanche Press
Blight Magic, Copyright 2002 Mystic Eye Games
Bloody Bones from the Tome of Horrors, Copyright 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene.
Blue Rose, Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Authors Jeremy Crawford, Dawn Elliot, Steve Kenson, and John Snead.
Book of Demons. Copyright © 2018 Pelgrane Press Ltd. under license from Fire Opal Media. All Rights Reserved. Licensed under the Open Game License.
Book of Eldritch Might Copyright 2001, Monte J. Cook
Book of Fiends. © 2003, Green Ronin Publishing; Authors: Aaron Loeb, Erik Mona, Chris Pramas, Robert J. Schwalb.
Book of the Righteous, Copyright 2002, Aaron Loeb.
Broadsides! Naval Adventuring Copyright 2001, Living imagination Inc.
Burok Torn, Copyright 2002 Sword & Sorcery Studios/White Wolf
Castles & Crusades © 2004, Troll Lord Games; Authors: Davis Chenault, Mac Golden.
Chaos Magic: Wild Sorcery Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Character Portraits: Fantasy Heroes copyright 2003, Mongoose Publishing
Codex Arcanis Copyright 2001, Paradigm Concepts
Constructs: It is Alive Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Creature Collection Volume 1 Copyright 2000, Clark Peterson.
Crusaders of Valor Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
d20herosrd.com, Copyright 2016, d20pfsrd.com Publishing; Author John Reyst.
Dark Pacts & Ancient Secrets © 2017 Author Martin Killmann
DC Adventures Hero’s Handbook, Copyright 2010, Green Ronin Publishing; Author Steve Kenson.
Demonology: The Dark Road Copyright 2001, Mongoose Publishing
Doom of Odin Copyright 2002, Avalanche Press
Dragon Lords of Melnibone Copyright 2000, Chaosium Inc.
Dragons Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment Group
Dungeon Crawl Classics #53: Sellswords of Punjar, by Harley Stroh, Copyright 2008 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Dungeon Crawl Classics #54: Forges of the Mountain King, by Harley Stroh, Copyright 2008 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Dungeon Crawl Classics #55: Isle of the Sea Drake, by Adrian Pommier, Copyright 2008 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Dungeon Crawl Classics #56: Scions of Punjar, by Adrian Pommier, Copyright 2008 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Dungeon Crawl Classics #57: Wyvern Mountain, by Mike Ferguson, Copyright 2008 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Dungeon Crawl Classics #58: The Forgotten Portal, by Chris Doyle, Copyright 2008 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Dungeon Crawl Classics #59: Mists of Madness, by Harley Stroh, Copyright 2008 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Dungeon Crawl Classics #60: Thrones of Punjar, by Rick Maffei, Copyright 2008 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Dungeon Crawl Classics #61: Citadel of the Corruptor, by Adrian Pommier, Copyright 2009 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Dungeons Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment Group
EN World EN5ider Presents: A Touch of Class. Copyright 2017 EN Publishing.
EN World EN5ider. Copyright 2015–2017 EN Publishing.
Evil Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment Group
Feats Copyright 2002, Alderac Entertainment Group
Fey Magic: Dreaming the Reverie Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Forerunner: The Framework. Copyright 2017 Anders Gabrielsson. Author Anders Gabrielsson.
Freeport: The City of Adventure Copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing
Gladiator, Sands of Death Copyright 2001, Mongoose Publishing
Gods & Heroes © 2013; Author John Lynch.
Gods Copyright 2002, Alderac Entertainment Group
Hall of the Rainbow Mage Copyright 2002, Sword & Sorcery Studios/White Wolf
Hammer & Helm Copyright 2002, Green Ronin
Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves Copyright 2002, Badaxe Games
Hollowfaust Copyright 2001, Sword & Sorcery Studios/White Wolf
Hyperconscious: Explorations in Psionics © 2004, Bruce R Cordell. All rights reserved.
If Thoughts Could Kill, © 2001–2004, Bruce R. Cordell. All rights reserved.
Interludes, Brief expeditions to Bluffside Copyright 2001, Thunderhead Games
Iron Heroes Copyright 2007 Adam Windsor. All rights reserved.
Jade & Steel Copyright 2001, Avalanche Press
King of Dungeons. Copyright 2017, Grand Scheme Publishing; Author: Barry Stevens.
Kobold Quarterly Issue 7, © 2008, Open Design LLC, www.koboldquarterly.com; Authors: John Baichtal, Wolfgang Baur, Ross Byers, Matthew Cicci, John Flemming, Jeremy Jones, Derek Kagemann, Phillip Larwood, Richard Pett, and Stan!
Legacy of the Dragons, copyright 2004 Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
Legions of Hell, Copyright 2001, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Chris Pramas
Level Up System Reference Documents (LUSRDs). Copyright 2021, EN Publishing. www.levelup5e.com
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition Adventurer’s Guide. Copyright 2021, EN Publishing. www.levelup5e.com
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition Monstrous Menagerie. Copyright 2021, EN Publishing. www.levelup5e.com
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition Trials & Treasures. Copyright 2021, EN Publishing. www.levelup5e.com
Librium Equitis Copyright 2002, Mystic Eye Games
Master Dungeons M1: Dragora’s Dungeon, by Harley Stroh, Copyright 2008 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Master Dungeons M2: Curse of Kingspire, by Harley Stroh, Copyright 2009 Goodman Games (contact info@goodman-games.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
Mercenaries Copyright 2002, Alderac Entertainment Group
Mindscapes, © 2003–2004, Bruce R. Cordell. All rights reserved.
Modern System Reference Document Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Richard Baker,Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Wiker
Monster Manual II Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Monsters Copyright 2002, Alderac Entertainment Group
Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved Copyright 2005 Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed Copyright 2003 Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed DM’s Screen and Player’s Guide Copyright 2003 Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
Mutants & Masterminds © 2002, Green Ronin Publishing.
Mutants & Masterminds Gadget Guide: Alien Tech, Copyright 20123, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
Mutants & Masterminds Gadget Guide: Archaic Weapons, Copyright 20123, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
Mutants & Masterminds Gadget Guide: Armor, Copyright 2013, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
Mutants & Masterminds Gadget Guide: Cybertech, Copyright 2013, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
Mutants & Masterminds Gadget Guide: Installations, Copyright 2013, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
Mutants & Masterminds Gadget Guide: Mecha, Copyright 2013, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
Mutants & Masterminds Gadget Guide: Vehicles, Copyright 2013, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
Mutants & Masterminds Hero’s Handbook, Copyright 2011, Green Ronin Publishing; Author Steve Kenson.
Mutants & Masterminds, Copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
Mutants & Masterminds, Second Edition, Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Author Steve Kenson.
Mystic Warriors Copyright 2001, Mystic eye Games
Mythic Races Copyright 2001, Fantasy Flight Inc.
Necromancy: Beyond the Grave Copyright 2001, Mongoose Publishing
Netbook of Feats Copyright 2000 Fantasy Netbook Community Council - Authors: Agustín Martín, Alan Sullivan, Alan Z. Eisinger, Albert Nakano, Anne Trent, B. Marcus Lindberg, Bill Browne, Bradley H. Bemis Jr., Brendan Quinn, Brian A. Smith, Carl Cramér, Chris Meravi, Curtis Bennett, Damon J Calhoun, Dan Hopkins, Daniel Langdon, David Sanders, David Spitzley, Dmitry Kuteynikov, Dominique Crouzet, Don McKinney, Eric D. Harry, Ian Cheesman, Jason D. Kemp, Jason Spangler, Jerry M. Chaney II, John O. Lamping, Jonathan D. Woolley, Jose Lira, Joshua Turton, Kenneth Oswald, Marcus Lindberg, Mark Koh, Matthew Lee Shelton, Max, Michael J. Kletch, Paul W. King, Peter K. Campbell, Pier Giorgio Pacifici, Rafael Arrais, Rebecca Glenn, Richard Magnan, Rick Coen, Robert Michael Ogilvie, Scott Metzger, Scott Resnick, Sean Kelly, Sigfried Trent, Steven J. Damon, Sébastien Adhikari, Terje Kristian Backman, Timothy S. Brannan, Troy Lenze, Tyson Neumann, William Batok, William Setzer
Occult Lore Copyright 2002, Atlas Games
Pact Magic Unbound, Vol. 1. Copyright, 2012, Radiance House. Author(s): Alexander Augunas, Dario Nardi
Path of the Magi. © 2002 Citizen Games/Troll Lord Games; Authors: Mike McArtor, W. Jason Peck, Jeff Quick, and Sean K Reynolds.
Path of War – Expanded, © 2016, Dreamscarred Press.
Path of War, © 2014, Dreamscarred Press.
Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide © 2020, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Amirali Attar Olyaee, Alexander Augunas, Kate Baker, Brian Bauman, Logan Bonner, Carlos Cabrera, James Case, Jessica Catalan, John Compton, Paris Crenshaw, Jesse Decker, Fabby Garza Marroquín, Steven Hammond, Sasha Laranoa Harving, Joan Hong, Nicolas Hornyak, Vanessa Hoskins, James Jacobs, Erik Keith, Lyz Liddell, Luis Loza, Ron Lundeen, Patchen Mortimer, Dennis Muldoon, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Jessica Redekop, Mikhail Rekun, Alex Riggs, David N. Ross, Michael Sayre, Mark Seifter, Kendra Leigh Speedling, Jason Tondro, Clark Valentine, and Andrew White.
Pathfinder Adventure Path #149: Against the Scarlet Triad © 2019, Paizo Inc.; Authors: John Compton, with Tim Nightengale and James L. Sutter.
Pathfinder Adventure Path #160: Assault on Hunting Lodge Seven © 2020, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Ron Lundeen, with Luis Loza and Hilary Moon Murphy.
Pathfinder Adventure Path #167: Ready? Fight! © 2021, Paizo Inc.; Authors: David N. Ross, with Joan Hong, Joshua Kim, Danita Rambo, Sen H.H.S., Tan Shao Han, and Ruvaid Virk.
Pathfinder Adventure Path #175: Broken Tusk Moon © 2022, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Ron Lundeen and Stephanie Lundeen.
Pathfinder Bestiary 2 (Second Edition) © 2020, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Alexander Augunas, Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Joseph Blomquist, Logan Bonner, Paris Crenshaw, Adam Daigle, Jesse Decker, Darrin Drader, Brian Duckwitz, Robert N. Emerson, Scott Fernandez, Keith Garrett, Scott Gladstein, Matthew Goodall, T.H. Gulliver, BJ Hensley, Tim Hitchcock, Vanessa Hoskins, James Jacobs, Brian R. James, Jason Keeley, John Laffan, Lyz Liddell, Colm Lundberg, Ron Lundeen, Jason Nelson, Randy Price, Jessica Redekop, Patrick Renie, Alistair Rigg, Alex Riggs, David N. Ross, David Schwartz, Mark Seifter, Amber Stewart, Jeffrey Swank, Russ Taylor, and Jason Tondro.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods © 2014, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Sean K Reynolds, with Amanda Hamon, James Jacobs, John Ling, Mark Moreland, David N. Ross, F. Wesley Schneider, Amber E. Scott, Tork Shaw, James L. Sutter, Jerome Virnich.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Technology Guide. © 2014, Paizo Inc.; Authors: James Jacobs and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Companion: Adventurer’s Armory. Copyright 2010, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jonathan Keith, Hal Maclean, Jeff Quick, Christopher Self, JD Wiker, and Keri Wiker.
Pathfinder Core Rulebook (Second Edition) © 2019, Paizo Inc.; Designers: Logan Bonner, Jason Bulmahn, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, and Mark Seifter.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Character Guide (Second Edition) © 2019, Paizo Inc.; Authors: John Compton, Sasha Lindley Hall, Amanda Hamon, Mike Kimmel, Luis Loza, Ron Lundeen, Matt Morris, Patchen Mortimer, Andrew Mullen, Mikhail Rekun, Micheal Sayre, Owen K.C. Stephens, Isabelle Thorne, and Linda Zayas-Palmer.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Class Guide © 2014, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Dennis Baker, Ross Byers, Jesse Benner, Savannah Broadway, Jason Bulmahn, Jim Groves, Tim Hitchcock, Tracy Hurley, Jonathan H. Keith, Will McCardell, Dale C. McCoy, Jr., Tom Phillips, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Thomas M. Reid, Sean K Reynolds, Tork Shaw, Owen K.C. Stephens, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Player’s Guide. © 2010, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Race Guide. © 2012, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Benjamin Bruck, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, Jim Groves, Tim Hitchcock, Hal MacLean, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Owen K.C. Stephens, Todd Stewart, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 2. © 2010, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors Wolfgang Baur, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, Graeme Davis, Crystal Frasier, Joshua J. Frost, Tim Hitchcock, Brandon Hodge, James Jacobs, Steve Kenson, Hal MacLean, Martin Mason, Rob McCreary, Erik Mona, Jason Nelson, Patrick Renie, Sean K Reynolds, F. Wesley Schneider, Owen K.C. Stephens, James L. Sutter, Russ Taylor, and Greg A. Vaughan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 3, © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors Jesse Benner, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, James Jacobs, Michael Kenway, Rob McCreary, Patrick Renie, Chris Sims, F. Wesley Schneider, James L. Sutter, and Russ Taylor, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 3. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jesse Benner, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, James Jacobs, Michael Kenway, Rob McCreary, Patrick Renie, Chris Sims, F. Wesley Schneider, James L. Sutter, and Russ Taylor, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 4. © 2013, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Savannah Broadway, Ross Byers, Adam Daigle, Tim Hitchcock, Tracy Hurley, James Jacobs, Matt James, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Tom Phillips, Stephen Radney- MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, F. Wesley Schneider, Tork Shaw, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 5. © 2015, Paizo Inc.; AUthors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, John Bennett, Logan Bonner, Creighton Broadhurst, Robert Brookes, Benjamin Bruck, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, Thurston Hillman, Eric Hindley, Joe Homes, James Jacobs, Amanda Hamon Kunz, Ben McFarland, Jason Nelson, Thom Phillips, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Alistair Rigg, Alex Riggs, David N. Ross, Wes Schneider, David Schwwartz, Mark Seifter, Mike SHel, James L. Sutter, and Linda Zayas-Palmer.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary. © 2009, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game GameMastery Guide. © 2010, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Cam Banks, Wolfgang Buar, Jason Bulmahn, Jim Butler, Eric Cagle, Graeme Davis, Adam Daigle, Joshua J. Frost, James Jacobs, Kenneth Hite, Steven Kenson, Robin Laws, Tito Leati, Rob McCreary, Hal Maclean, Colin McComb, Jason Nelson, David Noonan, Richard Pett, Rich Redman, Sean K reynolds, F. Wesley Schneider, Amber Scorr, Doug Seacat, Mike Selinker, Lisa Stevens, James L. Sutter, Russ Taylor, Penny Williams, Skip Williams, Teeuwynn Woodruff.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Monster Codex. © 2014, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Logan Bonner, Jason Bulmahn, Ross Byers, John Compton, Robert N. Emerson, Jonathan H. Keith, Dale C. McCoy, Jr., Mark Moreland, Tom Phillips, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, Thomas M. Reid, Patrick Renie, Mark Seifter, Tork Shaw, Neil Spicer, Owen K.C. Stephens, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Mythic Adventures © 2013, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jason Bulmahn, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Ben Bruck, Jim Groves, Tim Hitchcock, Tracy Hurley, Jonathan Keith, Jason Nelson, Tom Phillips, Ryan Macklin, F. Wesley Schneider, Amber Scott, Tork Shaw, Russ Taylor, and Ray Vallese.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game NPC Codex. © 2012, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jesse Benner, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, Alex Greenshields, Rob McCreary, Mark Moreland, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Patrick Renie, Sean K Reynolds, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Occult Adventures. © 2015, Paizo Inc.; Authors: John Bennett, Logan Bonner, Robert Brookes, Jason Bulmahn, Ross Byers, John Compton, Adam Daigle, Jim Groves, Thurston Hillman, Eric Hindley, Brandon Hodge, Ben McFarland, Erik Mona, Jason Nelson, Tom Phillips, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Thomas M. Reid, Alex Riggs, Robert Schwalb, Mark Seifter, Russ Taylor, and Steve Townshend.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Unchained. © 2015, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Ross Byers, Logan Bonner, Jason Bulmahn, Robert Emerson, Tim Hitchcock, Jason Nelson, Tom Phillips, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Thomas M. Reid, Robert Schwalb, Mark Seifter, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Paizo Publishing, LLC.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Campaign. © 2013, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jesse Benner, Benjamin Bruck, Jason Bulmahn, Ryan Costello, Adam Daigle, Matt Goetz, Tim Hitchcock, James Jacobs, Ryan Macklin, Colin McComb, Jason Nelson, Richard Pett, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Patrick Renie, Sean K Reynolds, F. Wesley Schneider, James L. Sutter, Russ Taylor, and Stephen Townshend.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Combat, © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Benjamin Bruck, Jason Bulmahn, Brian J. Cortijo, Jim Groves, Tim Hitchcock, Richard A. Hunt, Colin McComb, Jason Nelson, Tom Phillips, Patrick Renie, Sean K Reynolds, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Equipment. © 2012 Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Benjamin Bruck, Ross Byers, Brian J. Cortijo, Ryan Costello, Mike Ferguson, Matt Goetz, Jim Groves, Tracy Hurley, Matt James, Jonathan H. Keith, Michael Kenway, Hal MacLean, Jason Nelson, Tork Shaw, Owen KC Stephens, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Intrigue © 2016, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Jesse Benner, John Bennett, Logan Bonner, Robert Brookes, Jason Bulmahn, Ross Byers, Robert N. Emerson, Amanda Hamon Kunz, Steven Helt, Thurston Hillman, Tim Hitchcock, Mikko Kallio, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Tom Phillips, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Thomas M. Reid, Alexander Riggs, David N. Ross, David Schwartz, Mark Seifter, Linda Zayas-Palmer.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Magic. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jason Bulmahn, Tim Hitchcock, Colin McComb, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, Owen K.C. Stephens, and Russ Taylor.
Phrenic Power: Ardent © 2009 Dreamscarred Press
Phrenic Power: Phrenic Shards ©2008 Dreamscarred Press
Psionics Unleashed. Copyright 2010, Dreamscarred Press.
Ptolus: Beneath the Streets and Ptolus: Monte Cook’s City by the Spire © 2006 Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
Quintessential Cleric Copyright 2002, mongoose Publishing
Quintessential Dwarf Copyright 20002, Mongoose Publishing
Quintessential Elf Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Quintessential Fighter Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Quintessential Rogue Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Quintessential Wizard Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Relics & Rituals Copyright 2001, Clark Peterson
Rokugan Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment Group
Seafarer’s Handbook Copyright 2001, Fantasy Flight, Inc.
Seas of Blood Copyright 2001, Mongoose Publishing
Secret College of Necromancy copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing
Seven Strongholds Copyright 2002, Atlas Games
Shaman’s Handbook Copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing
Shamans: Call of the Wild copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Silver Age Sentinels d20, Copyright 2002, Guardians of Order, Inc.; Authors Stephen Kenson, Mark C. Mackinnon, Jeff Mackintosh, Jesse Scoble.
Skill Challenge Handbook © 2017, Everyman Gaming LLC; Authors: Alexander Augunas.
Skreyn’s Register: The Bonds of Magic and “Deities of The Faithful” Copyright 2002 Sean K Reynolds. All rights reserved.
Slayer’s Guide to Dragons Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Slayer’s Guide to Sahuagin copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Slayer’s Guide to Trolls Copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Spells & Magic Copyright 2002, Bastion Press
Spells & Spellcraft Copyright 2002, Fantasy Flight, Inc.
Spheres of Power © 2014 Drop Dead Studios LLC, Author Adam Meyers
Swords of Our Fathers Copyright 2003, The Game Mechanics.
System Reference Document 5.1 Copyright 2016, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford, Chris Perkins, Rodney Thompson, Peter Lee, James Wyatt, Robert J. Schwalb, Bruce R. Cordell, Chris Sims, and Steve Townshend, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, John D. Rateliff, Thomas Reid, James Wyatt, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
The Archives of Nethys. Copyright 2010, Blake Davis.
The Avatar’s Handbook, Copyright 2003, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Authors Jesse Decker and Chris Tomasson
The Book of Experimental Might, © 2008, Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
The Book of Fiends, Copyright 2003, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Authors Aaron Loeb, Erik Mona, Chris Pramas, and Robert J. Schwalb.
The Book of Hallowed Might. © 2002, Monte J. Cook.
The Complex of Zombies, Copyright 2007, Justin Alexander. Published by Dream Machine Productions.
The Diamond Throne Copyright 2003 Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
The Grand OGL Wiki, Grand Wiki - Android and iOS Game Reviews - Gmamber Reviews Copyright 2008-2009 Purple Duck Creations; Authors: Mark Gedak, Alex Schroeder, Joel Arellano, George Fields, Yair Rezek, Mike Whalen, Shane O’Connor, Mike Rickard, John Whamond, Bill Browne, Eric Williamson, Slatz Grubnik, Charles R. Wenzler Jr.
The Hunt: Rise of Evil World Book Copyright 2002, Mystic Eye Games
The Hypertext d20 SRD Copyright 2004, Jans W Carton; transferred to BoLS Interactive, 2016.
The Iconic Bestiary: Classics of Fantasy, © 2005, Lions Den Press; Author Ari Marmell
The Psychic’s Handbook, Copyright 2004, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Steve Kenson.
The Realms of Chirak copyright 2010 by Nicholas Bergquist, Zodiac Gods Publishing
The Shaman’s Handbook Copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing; Author, Steve Kenson
The Taan copyright 2001, Sovereign Press
The Tide of Years Copyright 2001, Michelle A. Brown Nephew
The Tome of Horrors III, © 2005, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene
The Unholy Warrior’s Handbook, Copyright 2003, Green Ronin Publishing, LLC; Author Robert J. Schwalb
Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors: Scott Greene, with Clark Peterson, Erica Balsley, Kevin Baase, Casey Christofferson, Lance Hawvermale, Travis Hawvermale, Patrick Lawinger, and Bill Webb; Based on original content from TSR.
Tome of Secrets, Copyright 2009, Adamant Entertainment, Inc. Authors: Walt Ciechanowski and Gareth-Michael Skarka.
Touched by the gods Copyright 2001, Atlas Games
Traps & Treachery Copyright 2001, Fantasy Flight, Inc.
Twilight of Atlantis Copyright 2002, Avalanche Press
Twin Crowns: Age of Exploration Fantasy Copyright 2001, Living Imagination Inc.
Ultramodern4 ©2012 Dias Ex Machina; Author: Chris Dias
Undead Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment Group
Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.
Villains, Copyright 2002, Bastion Press, Inc.
Vlad the Impailer Copyright 2002, Avalanche Press
War Copyright 2001, Alderac Entertainment Group
Way of the Witch Copyright 2002, Citizen Games; Authors Janet Pack, Jean Rabe, Megan Robertson, and Christina Stiles
END OF LICENSE
No thanks. This is not the way.
That’s required by the OGL. If you use content from an OGL-licensed game, you have to include it. The declarations are transitive, so you have to include any declarations your sources have. Check some of Paizo’s stuff or the OSE advanced fantasy Player’s Tome. The lists are almost as long.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think I would streamline everything that last more than 'until your next turn' to use the same 'duration' dice. At the end of your turn you roll a d20, if you roll above 10, you remove a negative condition (of your choice) from your character, but if you roll 10 or below, you must remove a positive condition. And every long term, temporary, numerical buff would be either a +2 or a -2 so you can just use counters to keep track.
duration techniques being niggly is definitely something one could address without it being problematic.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
Wanna test it via C&D?
Why would you expect a C&D? The 4th edition rule is based on the 3rd edition optional rule that was placed under OGL by Wizards themselves. You could cut and paste the text right from the 3e SRD and use it as is in an OGL product because Wizards has granted you a license to use it verbatim, or you can remix the text and keep using the same rule just

Non AC defense was already in the OGL before 4e even came out. That part isn't an issue for a 4e clone under the OGL so long as you include the 3e SRD in your copyright statement.
 

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM
I realize I kicked a hornet's nest, but I don't want to spend the rest of the day explaining myself. So I'll do this once, and then I'm going to try and drop the subject (i.e. I'll do my best not to respond to any more comments or discussions about Orcus because I would like to move past it).

Orcus might be a good system to play with, if that is your thing. I don't find it appealing myself, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the work and effort put into it by the author. I absolutely respect the organization and format skills on display. Kudos!

When we're talking about a usable OGL to support 4e specifically, however, I don't think this is it. For Orcus? Sure. But I wouldn't base a general model on it for 4e, and a lot of that comes from reading the Copyright Notice.

Obviously, it is very long. If you're wanting to publish, or even just make it accessible for others to use it, you'll need to make space for everything on that list plus anything else you want to add yourself. Now if you're making content specifically for Orcus, then it's just something you have to live with. But again, some of us are discussing a 4e license (or workaround) to serve the greater community.

So here's the other issue I have:
That’s required by the OGL. If you use content from an OGL-licensed game, you have to include it. The declarations are transitive, so you have to include any declarations your sources have. Check some of Paizo’s stuff or the OSE advanced fantasy Player’s Tome. The lists are almost as long.
I understand that. But "almost as long" as three pages? I guess it depends on your definition of almost. Most of what I could find in my small Paizo library is less than one page. That's the entire OGL with Copyright Notice. I attached a screenshot from a pdf with one of the bigger ones.

What the OGL doesn't require, however, is that you use content from a hundred different sources and authors just so you can have more content. The biggest difference between Paizo (or OSE) and a person with a lot of enthusiam is that one of these is not a professional publisher with experience navigating and utilizing the OGL. (Maybe they do. I don't know. But I'm not exactly filled with confidence on that point.) That's not a strong selling point for me; it's more like a load stone or an albatross around my neck.

Assuming that the author did their homework and researched each individual license for everything they included in Orcus, everything should be good and no one is going to come back later with any issues or disputes. Supposedly. But if someone else uses the license, they might not be quite as clear about OGLs and what's allowed, etc. Not only will they need to refer to the Orcus OGL, but will probably also want to go back and make sure the other OGLs will allow them to do what they want to do with their content. Its probably not an issue in most cases, but I'd want to know. Maybe that's just me.

But suppose it's not just me. Maybe the authors and publishers get wind of this and take a look for themselves. Maybe one of them decides their rules aren't being followed, or didn't give approval for the way its being used, or something. Doesn't matter what it is. The fact is having this many copyrights and content from so many different sources increases the possibility that someone might not agree to allow their content to be used. And if it is baked into the system, how easy will it be to pull it out? Does it create a space that needs to be filled? How does that affect everyone else? For me, its just too much baggage with too much potential for liability. There must be a better way.

And let me point out one more thing. Just because Paizo and OSE found their solutions, doesn't mean the same solution will work for 4e. It could, but not necessarily by following the exact same footsteps. The GSL created a lot of restrictions to prevent 4e being replicated by anyone else. It's going to take a lot more effort and innovation to get around it, and that might well have been the purpose of the GSL. There's no easy way around it, and that's enough to deter most people from following through.

I'm not trying to harsh on anyone's fun, or their opinion, or their work. Orcus could be a solid alternative to 4e for some (or many), but I think the greater community needs a lighter (less encumbered) OGL to work with. I realize its one of the few arrows we have in our quiver. But its not the solution I'm looking for. Its just looks like more problems to me.
 

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Composer99

Adventurer
I realize I kicked a hornet's nest, but I don't want to spend the rest of the day explaining myself. So I'll do this once, and then I'm going to try and drop the subject (i.e. I'll do my best not to respond to any more comments or discussions about Orcus because I would like to move past it).

What hornet's nest? You got three responses, one of which was a request for clarification, and the other two of which were not directly disagreeing with you. (I don't parse Jer's reply as being a direct disagreement, at any rate.)

(For what it's worth I agree that a three-page-long Section 15 in an OGL is overlong for a ruleset that might be intended (in part) as a kernel or baseline for third-party extension.)

At any rate, if you want to do your own thing (or not) independent of Orcus - well and good. Nothing wrong with more than one 4ER ("4th Edition Revival" you might say) retroclone existing.
 

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