D&D (2024) What type of ranger would your prefer for 2024?

[Clint_L]

I mean, Aragorn is a fighter for all intents and purposes, plus features from the "Dunedain" sub-species that you would have to home-brew, the medicine feat, and high survival and perception. You can't translate LotR directly into D&D, but that would get you closest. He would have a relatively high dexterity and be good with a bow (though not Legolas good), but Aragorn is primarily a melee combatant, and even wears heavy armour for the final battle. So that archetype can more or less be built in D&D, and if you want to call that a ranger in your campaign, go for it.

Legolas is a lot more like what a D&D ranger is. Most of this thread seems to be driven by the idea that the thing called a ranger in Lord of the Rings didn't cast spells, so the thing called a ranger in D&D shouldn't cast spells.

 

[Minigiant]

This problem relates to the Mythic Fighter as well. The Gygax "N" reading list doesnt incorporate material about superhuman warriors.

It also relates to the Barbarian.
Because even though there was no example of high level barbarians in Appendix N, when WOTC redid the barbarian in 3e, they took inspriation from outside of it.

The Incredible Hulk.

The Hulk is a well above level level 20 being even in 5e. This made the scale. One that scales with the Apppendix N apprentice mage to lich.

Normal 1 HD Angry Man to Incredible 30+ HD Hulk.
And it didn't even need a subsystem.

Thus no need to ever insert a scale via the spell casting system.

 

[Yaarel]

It also relates to the Barbarian.
Because even though there was no example of high level barbarians in Appendix N, when WOTC redid the barbarian in 3e, they took inspriation from outside of it.

The Incredible Hulk.

The Hulk is a well above level level 20 being even in 5e. This made the scale. One that scales with the Apppendix N apprentice mage to lich.

Normal 1 HD Angry Man to Incredible 30+ HD Hulk.
And it didn't even need a subsystem.

Thus no need to ever insert a scale via the spell casting system.

Yeah, D&D works better when integrating the superhero genre.

 

[Minigiant]

I mean, Aragorn is a fighter for all intents and purposes, plus features from the "Dunedain" sub-species that you would have to home-brew, the medicine feat, and high survival and perception. You can't translate LotR directly into D&D, but that would get you closest. He would have a relatively high dexterity and be good with a bow (though not Legolas good), but Aragorn is primarily a melee combatant, and even wears heavy armour for the final battle. So that archetype can more or less be built in D&D, and if you want to call that a ranger in your campaign, go for it.

Legolas is a lot more like what a D&D ranger is. Most of this thread seems to be driven by the idea that the thing called a ranger in Lord of the Rings didn't cast spells, so the thing called a ranger shouldn't cast spells.

I'd say it the other way around. Legolas is a fighter with elf racials. Aragorn is a human ranger, which is a expert of Dunedain skills that fights almost as well as a fighter.

This issue is LOTR is a low level low magic setting whereas D&D is high magic high fantasy at base and goes to level 20. Few mortals are above level 5 and Aragorn caps maybe at level 8 if you squint.

----

It's like designing classes purely off of Tier 1 power. Which is fine. Most LOTR 5e has this..But D&D goes into Tier 2-4. And D&D fans cannot what a Tier 2, Tier3, or Tier 4 ranger without cloning the fighter or adding spells because there is plurality agreement of ranger examples post Tier 1.

 

[Yaarel]

I'd say it the other way around. Legolas is a fighter with elf racials. Aragorn is a human ranger, which is a expert of Dunedain skills that fights almost as well as a fighter.

This issue is LOTR is a low level low magic setting whereas D&D is high magic high fantasy at base and goes to level 20. Few mortals are above level 5 and Aragorn caps maybe at level 8 if you squint.

----

It's like designing classes purely off of Tier 1 power. Which is fine. Most LOTR 5e has this..But D&D goes into Tier 2-4. And D&D fans cannot what a Tier 2, Tier3, or Tier 4 ranger without cloning the fighter or adding spells because there is plurality agreement of ranger examples post Tier 1.

For me, the "mid tier" (levels 9-12) is highly significant, and is its own genre that is distinct from either the Professional tier (levels 5-8) or the Grandmaster tier (levels 13-16).

For comparison, a setting like Game of Thrones is mostly Student tier (levels 1-4) with the most powerful individuals somewhere in the Professional tier (levels 5-8).

In my eyes, Beowulf stats well as a Master tier Fighter (levels 9-12), around level 12, tho some argue higher because of the monsters that he defeats. I view those monsters as shapeshifter Berserkar, who are likewise Master tier.


The Tolkien setting focuses on the characters who are mostly in the Professional tier (levels 5-8). Gandalf himself is anomalous, and I prefer to stat him as a Legend tier (levels 17-20) Devotion Paladin.

Legolas is easily a Master tier Fighter (levels 9-12), with an Elf Prestidigitation cantrip to keep him looking clean and polished. His marksmanship (marksfolkship?) is quasi superhuman, like Batman.

Despite Aragorn being an inspiration for the Ranger class, he seems to be a simple Fighter probably Professional tier (levels 5-8). Someone mentioned him healing? If so, this can be a feat, an Elf ancestry, or a magic item.

Actually, because of the Charisma and Intelligence of Aragorn, I feel he is a much better inspiration for the 4e Warlord class, than any Ranger class.

 

[Emberashh]

So now you have to create 12 levels of stuff to continue the scale

And that isn't a problem. Calling it a problem that the game has to actually be finished is just, strange.

This problem relates to the Mythic Fighter as well. The Gygax "N" reading list doesnt incorporate material about superhuman warriors.

Relative to the real world, Appendix N heroes are superhuman. Even Aragorn. (Especially him, in fact)

Have to keep in mind soft mundaneity is a thing. If we say someone isn't magic, they aren't, regardless of what they do that exceeds the bounds of real life.

Action heroes do this all the time, in worlds farrr less fantastical than what DND is typically used for.

 

[Clint_L]

I'd say it the other way around. Legolas is a fighter with elf racials. Aragorn is a human ranger, which is a expert of Dunedain skills that fights almost as well as a fighter.

We don't see Legolas in heavy armour. We do see Aragorn in heavy armour. Legolas fights primarily with a bow. Aragorn fights primarily with a sword. Legolas is a scout with uncanny perception. Aragorn is a battlefield leader and general. Legolas has many abilities that seem magical, such as the ability to pass without a trace even when walking on snow. Aragorn has more prosaic survival skills. Legolas is often described as having incredible reflexes and acrobatic skills. Aragorn is described as being unusually tough and disciplined. Legolas is a ranged fighter almost without peer. Aragorn is a melee fighter almost without peer.

I'm not seeing how you get "Legolas=D&D fighter and Aragorn=D&D ranger" out of this.

 

[Minigiant]

And that isn't a problem. Calling it a problem that the game has to actually be finished is just, strange.

I didn't say its a problem.
A problem is something wrong that must be solved.
It's an issue. We just need to make a decision on the issue.

The problem is the unwillingness by a plurality of the community to make a decision.

Relative to the real world, Appendix N heroes are superhuman. Even Aragorn. (Especially him, in fact)

Have to keep in mind soft mundaneity is a thing. If we say someone isn't magic, they aren't, regardless of what they do that exceeds the bounds of real life.

Action heroes do this all the time, in worlds farrr less fantastical than what DND is typically used for.

The issue is D&D has been a 20 level game that ends with pit fiends, balors, and archmages at the end.

Superhuman isn't Tier 2 or Tier 3 or Tier 4. Tier 2 is Tier 2. Tier 3 is Tier 3. And Tier 4 is Tier 4.
This is why 1e and 2e flattens after level 10. This is why AIME is lower powered.
There was a decision for D&D 5e to be high powered.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm not seeing how you get "Legolas=D&D fighter and Aragorn=D&D ranger" out of this.

Legalos' noncombat abilities were 100% racial. That's Race based.

Aragorn;s noncombat abilities were mostly stuff that if he taught a human or halfling , they could physically and mentally learn. That's Class Based.

Legolas in 5e is a Elf Fighter with an Elf racial Feat.
Aragorn is 5e is a Human Ranger with just ASI.

 

[Emberashh]

At this point we literally agree what has to be done and the only reason we keep going in circles is out of slavish devotion to satisfying the assumed whims of people who literally aren't here to speak for themselves.

Ive said it before, and if I havent Ill say it now: stop trying to find the rules light, one sentence answer thats going to make all these ghosts and phantoms of simple-only players happy.

It isn't going to happen.