D&D 5E (+)What Ubiquitous DnD Tropes Get It Totally Wrong?

[Oofta]

You claim that orcs always have to be evil because the MM lists them as so, and the text says they're often guilty of evil acts. The MM also lis t s Drow as evil, the text talks about their evil acts etc, exactly as the orc text does. And yet, in the PHB you can play non evil drow, and not just in FR. Why do you take it as read that orcs always have to be evil, when a similar race can apparently be non evil too? Can you explain that inconsistency if you're unable to explain the other one I mentioned above?

Drow are not allowed in my campaign because I don't allow evil characters. The PHB says nothing one way or another about their alignment and other people allow evil PCs. It also states quite clearly "Check with your Dungeon Master to see if you can play one. "

What other inconsistency? Orcs always being evil?

Shortened version: they were a race created by an evil god bent on vengeance. Evil gods don't want their creations to have free will they want tools and minions. Good gods value free will.

Go back a few hundred posts if you want a more detailed explanation.

 

[Lem23]

Drow are also the playthings of an evil god(dess) and listed as evil in the MM, and described as committing evil acts, but any characters who are drow don't have to be evil. Do you agree with that part? Whether you allow them in your campaign or not is irrelevant, otherwise why talk about the relevance of Canon good drow in Fr?


If you don't agree with the above, could you explain why?

If you do agree, why do you think orcs can never be non evil, where other races with pretty much the same background and write up can?

Can you explain that.?

 

[Lem23]

I'm also not accusing of anything, other than perhaps inconsistency in your opinion. I'm more interested in how you've convinced yourself of a position that doesn't appear to hold up to reason or logic by your own argument, and would be interested in seeing where the fault line is in your reasoning.

 

[Oofta]

Listen, if y'all want to discuss the role of free will, alignment and sentient creatures and how that should be handled, I'm open.

I'm no longer going to respond to accusations from anyone that somehow I'm being dishonest or making claims about things I've never said.

My summarized opinion:

• Evil gods want yes-men that will do as they're told and are extensions of their will, good gods want creations who have free will.
• Orcs are not humans
• Some creatures in the MM are evil because they are hard-wired to be evil.
• There's a recurring theme of "if an orc is raised in a healthy environment they won't be evil" that comes up here and there. To me that smacks of colonialism.
• I think being hard-wired as evil is not great, but it's the lesser of two evils (evil because of nature not nurture).

If that last statement is problematic for orcs then it's problematic for all sentient creatures whatever their origin.

 

[Aldarc]

What bothers me is that monsters like hags are somehow not part of this discussion. Seriously? A creature that is always female, always evil, uses illusion and subterfuge but will kill you and cook you for supper is not part of this conversation? Who says that they don't have free will to choose to not be evil? For that matter, where does it state that succubi don't have free will?

Does it bother you because keeping on the topic of orcs puts your campaign approach in the hot seat? I suppose that is to be expected. We have been talking about orcs and not other bioforms because the issue of orcs was raised. There are PLENTY of problematic elements associated with other creatures. No one has denied that. A few were even previously been mentioned, such as succubi. But we've been mainly talking about orcs up til now. Should we have been randomly talk about hags in a conversation about orcs?

But we can't ever get past the "orcs are people too" and what implications that has.

That likely has to do with how orcs are such a prevalent part of popular fantasy so it's naturally going to come up more than hags.

 

[Lem23]

So why the disconnect in seeing orcs as always evil but not drow, even though theyre written up the same way? Similar God-Driven background, similar alignment listing in MM, similar description of evil actions, but canonical non evil members of one of the two races.

How do you see them as different cases?

 

[Lem23]

Or are you suggesting that Lolth is a good god, and thus allows free will? I'm pretty sure lolth's write up mentions that she's evil, just like gruumsh.

 

[Morrus]

So many reported posts. I’m pretty sure every participant in this thread has reported every other participant. The reported posts queue has blown up. We have better things to do, so thread closed. And as a reminder, moderators aren’t a “win argument” button.