D&D 4E What was Paizo thinking? 3.75 the 4E clone?

[DaveMage]

There's a lot more to ENWorld than just the 4e forum.

True dat.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

And Paizo can't run their numbers, check out market barometers, run survey's, and so on? WotC may know their own sales figures and expenses, but there's no real reason to think they've got more or better information than Paizo can get unless they come right out and tell us what kind of research they're doing.

I've seen customer surveys (those little white cards you're supposed to fill out and send in) in the back of roughly 50% of all Wizards products I've ever bought. I've never seen any in Paizo's. Which is why it worries me that Paizo is using their message boards for feedback... message boards are useful for feedback to an extent. But the problem with them is that they tend to encourage groupthink, especially when, like the Paizo boards, they're virtually unmoderated and intensely hostile to opinions counter to the group consensus. In such a situation, it's entirely possible and in fact likely to gain feedback that indicates you should take action A, when in fact you should be taking action B which is the exact opposite.

From what I've seen, Paizo's consumer studies are nowhere near as rigorous as WotC's, and thus are far more likely to produce false data.

 

[crosswiredmind]

The real question is do you want a new edition? What % of current 3.5 players will convert to 4.0? What makes anyone think the new system wont also be full of imbalance.

Yes.

A whole lot.

I don't.

Let me explain. I no longer enjoy playing 3.5. I am looking forward to Pathfinder as it is looking to fix many of the issues. I am also looking forward to 4E as I feel it fits my style as a player and GM - and I love Eberron.

I also know that 4E will sell very well and lots of players will switch. My FLGS has already started its reserve list and it grows every week.

I am not looking for the perfect game - I already own RuneQuest (2nd and 3rd eds).

So I see this as a win/win kind of thing - i can play Pathfinder and 4E. Good times ahead!

 

[billd91]

I've seen customer surveys (those little white cards you're supposed to fill out and send in) in the back of roughly 50% of all Wizards products I've ever bought. I've never seen any in Paizo's.
<snip>

From what I've seen, Paizo's consumer studies are nowhere near as rigorous as WotC's, and thus are far more likely to produce false data.

Those response cards in the backs of WotC products aren't particularly rigorous either. They can give you an idea how well the purchasers liked your product, but they won't tell WotC much about the gaming market at large or about the players who might have gotten fed up with 3.5 and thus stopped buying the products. That requires a significantly broader and much more rigorous effort... and we don't know they're doing it this time around. One hopes they are but it's not like they've been particularly public about conducting the same sorts of surveys.
From what I've seen, nobody's doing anything of any real rigor, and that includes WotC. Best I can really do is hope that people are using their heads when making decisions and basing them on research that I don't happen to be party to. I'm certainly not going to just jump to the conclusion that Paizo is doing nothing while WotC is being rigorous... not without more data.

 

[crosswiredmind]

I'm glad someone said it, or I was going to; everyone keeps blathering on about "market research" and " gamer feedback" when I have seen absolutely NO sins of any kind of survey or concerted effort at gathering feedback since 3E was being compiled.

Lots WotC book had reader feedback cards in them. I know I filled out my share. Then there are cons - they can't help but get feedback there.

Just because you did not see it doe not mean it did not happen.

 

[Nytmare]

Which is why it worries me that Paizo is using their message boards for feedback...

Yeah I had meant to mention this before. Over at Kingdom of Loathing we see roughly 1% of our playerbase on the forums. That's 1% of the 100% of our users who are already online and already in a browser playing our game. I can't imagine that a forum for a pen and paper RPG can possibly hope for a larger cross section than that.

On the other hand I'm pretty sure that someone would have noticed that their forum numbers are teeny-tiny compared to the number of people they sell books to.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Those response cards in the backs of WotC products aren't particularly rigorous either. They can give you an idea how well the purchasers liked your product, but they won't tell WotC much about the gaming market at large or about the players who might have gotten fed up with 3.5 and thus stopped buying the products. That requires a significantly broader and much more rigorous effort... and we don't know they're doing it this time around. One hopes they are but it's not like they've been particularly public about conducting the same sorts of surveys.
From what I've seen, nobody's doing anything of any real rigor, and that includes WotC. Best I can really do is hope that people are using their heads when making decisions and basing them on research that I don't happen to be party to. I'm certainly not going to just jump to the conclusion that Paizo is doing nothing while WotC is being rigorous... not without more data.

I think Paizo and WotC have one strength that TSR might have lacked (at least according to some of Monte Cooks blog posts): The people working there play the game themself. Sure, neither of them is entirely representive of the game, but if they see something that works in their game, or they see something that doesn't work in their game, they can try to figure out why it is so and "replicate" the effect.

I remember reading somewhere (I think in a blog post) about them watching a focus group playing. I don't know if that means they do it very often, but it seems to imply so. There seems to be going on a lot that we don't see. It might be because it's a little bit of a business secret, or it's just because it is the kind of stuff we don't really need to know.

 

[cougent]

Much depends on what you constitute as Paizo's customer base. I don't think we're thinking of that in the same turns. I don't consider myself part of Paizo's customer base, but I'm guessing you would consider me one of their customers. Technically, I'm still a customer of Paizo's, but I'm not going to be in very short order.

Subtracting out the customers such as myself that Paizo is going to or has lost, Paizo will need to make up for our revenue elsewhere or streamline it's operations, which a lean company like Paizo would probably have great difficulty doing. Growth, per se, isn't essential, but maintaining market share is pretty darn important.

I could say almost the exact same thing about WotC for me. I have not purchased anything of theirs (except on ebay) for over a year already. I still claim fence sitter status for now, but after the release of Book of Experimental Might and Paizo's announcement I now have even more options that don't involve starting over from scratch, spending money for new stuff instead of replacement stuff, and still being able to pull from already purchased stuff with little or no modification.

I had already decided to wait and review 4E six months down the road and then maybe switch if it seemed right, now that decision has been pushed back to August 2009 and has a competitor to review as well.

Edit:

So I see this as a win/win kind of thing - i can play Pathfinder and 4E. Good times ahead!

Just saw this above and wanted to agree with it also, there is nothing that says I can't do both.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

I haven't posted here but just wanted to say over at paizos they have a top seller list on there pathfinder page.#8 is the pathfinder RPG #9 is the pathfinder beta . I think they'll do just fine.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I could say almost the exact same thing about WotC for me. I have not purchased anything of theirs (except on ebay) for over a year already. I still claim fence sitter status for now, but after the release of Book of Experimental Might and Paizo's announcement I now have even more options that don't involve starting over from scratch, spending money for new stuff instead of replacement stuff, and still being able to pull from already purchased stuff with little or no modification.

I really see no fundamental difference between buying "replacement stuff" for a new edition and buying new stuff. For me, it boils down to the same - each provides me with a different experience.

There is a difference in details, though. Buying the 4E equivalent of Complete Arcane will give me a book that I will probably use as much as the 3E Complete Arcane *. Buying a supplement for 3E means I probably will use it a lot less then the 3E Complete Arcane , since its content is a little to specific or out-of-the-ordinary to be used by now.
The only exceptions are adventures. But adventures are either always replacement stuff (since they replace the adventure you just played and won't play again, barring a switch in play groups), or they never are (since they always provide a unique experience - every adventure is different.)

As long as you plan to keep on buying, there isn't a big difference whether you buy something for the new or the old edition, since the differences between the editions are large enough to mean that even if they cover the same themes, they will work differently. The real important question is which of the two editions on general will entertain you best. That, off course, is subjective.

I haven't posted here but just wanted to say over at paizos they have a top seller list on there pathfinder page.#8 is the pathfinder RPG #9 is the pathfinder beta . I think they'll do just fine.

Does this mean they already get preorders? Sounds good.