D&D 4E What was Paizo thinking? 3.75 the 4E clone?

[JVisgaitis]

At some point I gotta wonder how you can say with a straight face that 4E has issues yet address the problems with the similar fixes?

Of course you're going to get similar fixes. I started working on a draft OGL RPG for Violet Dawn that had a lot of the same fixes. Designers and Players find the same issues with the game, and fix them the same way. I don't really understand what is so surprising about that.

It's the same with people playing MTG or anything else. You adapt and find the same combos to win.

 

[IanB]

I can count the number of people Paizo has lost that I have observed on one hand. (Although, if I put some effort into it, perhaps two!)

I frequent a few forums, and there are people in every thread I've seen on the topic saying "I'm canceling Pathfinder over this". It isn't anything like MOST of the people in the threads, but there's enough of them to make me think 'maybe there's a larger trend.' It also appears to the naked eye to be more people than I've seen saying "Well I didn't subscribe to pathfinder at all before, but I'm going to now" which is why I'm wondering where all these new Paizo customers are. Perhaps just not on the internet - but there's no way there's 2 million of them.

 

[Chocobo]

I can't see how Pathfinder RPG is a good thing. Now I understand it is still alpha, and malleable at this point, but I think they're taking the wrong direction with it. They should concentrate on fixing rules and balance, not changing all the content and setting new benchmarks.

Here are examples of a good changes, and bad changes in my opinion:

Good change: +1 hp/level for favored class.
This is a rule that does not invalidate any 3rd party or supplemental content. It can be applied equally across the board. In addition it brings about an incentive to actually use favored classes when they were previously irrelevant for most circumstances.

Bad change: additional bonuses for all core races
This just makes the core races more powerful now, essentially they're all LA +1 for free. That makes all non-core races now essentially useless without extra work for the GM to convert them to the new system.

 

[Gundark]

[...]We had a market that was 3.5 and a new market of 4E. Now we have a market of 3.5 (some folks may not want to go to the Paizo route and also not buy 4E), we now have the 3.75 of Paizo, and 4E.

I was thinking about this very thing myself. So Paizo loses the people who are going to 4e (yes I know they're making or will make 4e products....or they're counting Necromancers 4e products as their own...I was unclear, but pathfinder is their moneymaker no?), and then run the risk of dividing their customers base that are staying with 3.5. How many people who are staying 3.5 going to like the 3.75 changes (maybe a large %, maybe a small %...point is it's gonna happen)? Further they make the Alpha free? On the one hand you've given people a reason to check out your 3.75 (and in the end was probably the best way to do it), however you also given people a reason to not buy the beta or the finished product....

 

[small pumpkin man]

Let me try and make my point more clear ...

NETWORK EXTERNALITIES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect ... foir the non economics majors and MBAs out there)

We had a market that was 3.5 and a new market of 4E. Now we have a market of 3.5 (some folks may not want to go to the Paizo route and also not buy 4E), we now have the 3.75 of Paizo, and 4E.

D&D is not a stand alone game. It never has nor ever will be ... you need OTHER people to play with. If you invest time an resources into a game that has 3 players scattered around the world then you have a failure of an RPG even if it is the most perfect ruleset ever.

The bulk of the market for D&D is going to 4E. The remainder of that market just got more fragmented today with Paizos move. If you wander over to the boards for "gamers wanted" today you can already see the issues folks have locating new gamers. Now the given market for D&D-esque gamers will be fragmented into several pieces.

It was a bonehead move.

Seeking to specialize in a dwinding market for a network externality based product is business failure. Anyone bored with the intrawebs and a business background can cite you dozens of companies tat blindly went down that path. Not sayign they will dissapear overnight but they will firmly cement there role and garage level web publishing.

If you want to stall to get time to grasp 4E rules and such but still sell product then you release a "Pathfinder ~ the History of the world SOurcebook" as your first product and completely ignore rules in favor of setting. 3 months later after the launch of 4E you have an idea how to build your crunch products.

They are doing that, and the entire point of the Pathfinder rules system is to be compatable with 3.5 books people already have, while fixing the problems people have. The reason they have to release their own book is because Wotc is taking 3.5 off the shelves, and if they're going to be supporting 3.x with thier material, there needs to be a players handbooks out there people can buy, attempting to support a system where you can't buy a new set of core rules at you LFGS would be moronic.

Instead Paizo leaves behind 3.5 and make no mistake those new rules are both a powercreep and flavor tie in to their new products that overshadows any previous 3.5X material.

It's not powercreep, it's balancing, balance up, not down is just basic game design, the really powerfull classes (high level Clerics & Wizards) had extra spells taken from (where their real power comes from) and replaced with less powerful (but arguably interesting) abilities.

I also don't see any flavour ties to their world, maybe they're there, but I don't see how the classes are any more restrictive than before.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

I frequent a few forums, and there are people in every thread I've seen on the topic saying "I'm canceling Pathfinder over this". It isn't anything like MOST of the people in the threads, but there's enough of them to make me think 'maybe there's a larger trend.' It also appears to the naked eye to be more people than I've seen saying "Well I didn't subscribe to pathfinder at all before, but I'm going to now" which is why I'm wondering where all these new Paizo customers are. Perhaps just not on the internet - but there's no way there's 2 million of them.

I agree with you about the 2 million figure; it is absurd. I guess we will just have to wait and see how it pans out.

 

[Shadewyn]

LESSON 1: Never post in a hurry ... jogging out to a meeting and slapping send = bad grammar and unfinished thoughts.


That said ... : )


Paizo is full of BRILLIANT TALENTED WRITERS ...

I own MANY of there products.

This is not a "hate on Paizo" thread.

Nor is it a "hate on how Paizo approached the 3.5 problems".

10 design teams will find the same problems and all come up with similar solutions. Argueing that one is better than another is like sayign suede is better that leather compared to rawhide etc ...

This is the logic path I am following;

1) RPGs are based on network externalities. How COOL and PERFECT a game is often takes a very distant back seat compared to HOW MANY PLAY that game. If you are a hardcore Paizon fan in a small midwest town where the RPG gaming community all plays 4E, or 1E, or maybe GURPS, then you are not playing. It doesnt matter HOW cool the pictures are or clean the rules are.

2) WotC just fragmented the community by bring in 4E

3) You face a choice ... support the old 3E or new 4E, maybe a hybrid ...

4) You instead choose to build your own NON COMPATIBLE version of D&D. Does not meant the solutions were better or worse that WotC's to the 3.5 issues. Thats why several folks were detailing how the upgrade to Pathfinder is not going to allow or encourage you to still use your heritage 3.5 material. The 3.75 Paizo stuff powercreeps and shifts the gameplay focus in such a way that it is a whole new game (the same way 4E does when it apporached the design problems of 3.5)

5) You now took your target market of 3.5E players and broke that peice into "those who will upgrade to Pathfinder" and "those who keep the core 3.5".

==========

Thats why I say it is a bonehead move.

Frankly if I didnt care that about Paizo I would have just snickered at the annoucement and gone "nubs". I will miss their writing in 4E.

 

[crow81]

I for one plan on giving Piazo a shot. The people running the company have a proven track record of quality work whereas the people at WotC have a history of churning out under tested products. Does anyone believe there won't be errata out the wazoo once 4e gets into the mass production. Almost every book they publish has flaws. It is in their best interest to put out a sub par product. That way they can justify replacing it.

Does everyone realize that the first splat book is scheduled for release in 2008 before the core rules are even tested adding new powers for the fighters that will work out well for the game.

To those going to 4e I wish you fair well

If you live in the NYC area and the alternative sounds like something you might like I plan on starting a Pathfinder Society Gaming Group.

Rich

 

[Shadewyn]

It's not powercreep, it's balancing, balance up, not down is just basic game design, the really powerfull classes (high level Clerics & Wizards) had extra spells taken from (where their real power comes from) and replaced with less powerful (but arguably interesting) abilities.

The point being that if;

1) a fighter was X level of intresting to play in 3.5

2) And a Paizo tripled the fun factor, and doubled the end game power (to normalize them with mages that go nova)

3) Existing 3.5 splat books on fighters failed to correct those issues as well as Paizo did


Then the only conclusion really is that Once you play the Pathfinder you are playing a whole new game. You will NOT go back to sub optimal 3.5 splat books to go fishing for weak, broken solutions.

As a result if you are not USING old 3.5 stuff anymore, and the mechanics have shifted so that you have to CONVERT all that old stuff on the fly between 3.5 to 3.75 you now also have a PENALTY to use the old stuff.

Take those yippee skippee thoughts and then think about how well the 3.0 to 3.5 transition went.

Anyone want to dredge up the intrawebs for folks who "WOULD NOT CONVERT" and still do the old 3.0 version? Any of them still around? How about all those publishers who sold 3.0 stuff ... how much of that sells anymore? It was a SEAMLESS upgrade ... yeah right.

DMs who purchase PREBUILT modules and products are in the market for conveiniece. Sure if we have time we could build a game world, stat it with richly detailed NPCs, custome tailor it to our players, etc ...

Realistically we are crawling in from a late week at work and our gaming group clamors for content. Paizo was the microwave pizza solution. Fast, pretty tasty, and most everyone will be happy with the results.

Now I open the box and I am told to how to convert my microwave to a convection oven and it suggests that I convince my gamers about the virtues of sardines, and to get that stuft crust look we used to love that I should manuallt inject velveeta into the dough mid way through baking.

Uhh Uhhh ... no ... no convience? No purchase.

 

[Klaus]

LESSON 1: Never post in a hurry ... jogging out to a meeting and slapping send = bad grammar and unfinished thoughts.


That said ... : )


Paizo is full of BRILLIANT TALENTED WRITERS ...

I own MANY of there products.

This is not a "hate on Paizo" thread.

Nor is it a "hate on how Paizo approached the 3.5 problems".

10 design teams will find the same problems and all come up with similar solutions. Argueing that one is better than another is like sayign suede is better that leather compared to rawhide etc ...

This is the logic path I am following;

1) RPGs are based on network externalities. How COOL and PERFECT a game is often takes a very distant back seat compared to HOW MANY PLAY that game. If you are a hardcore Paizon fan in a small midwest town where the RPG gaming community all plays 4E, or 1E, or maybe GURPS, then you are not playing. It doesnt matter HOW cool the pictures are or clean the rules are.

2) WotC just fragmented the community by bring in 4E

3) You face a choice ... support the old 3E or new 4E, maybe a hybrid ...

4) You instead choose to build your own NON COMPATIBLE version of D&D. Does not meant the solutions were better or worse that WotC's to the 3.5 issues. Thats why several folks were detailing how the upgrade to Pathfinder is not going to allow or encourage you to still use your heritage 3.5 material. The 3.75 Paizo stuff powercreeps and shifts the gameplay focus in such a way that it is a whole new game (the same way 4E does when it apporached the design problems of 3.5)

5) You now took your target market of 3.5E players and broke that peice into "those who will upgrade to Pathfinder" and "those who keep the core 3.5".

==========

Thats why I say it is a bonehead move.

Frankly if I didnt care that about Paizo I would have just snickered at the annoucement and gone "nubs". I will miss their writing in 4E.

You're forgetting one thing with the "network externailities" thing:

Players will play whatever the hell the DM will DM. I find it very, very hard to believe a DM would say "I wanna run a game of Shadowrun" and the players will say "y'know, I'll pass". Because when it's all said and done, it's the actual getting together with friends that is the draw of RPGs, not the system. Friends will get together to play D&D, Pathfinder, Monopoly, Tunnels & Trolls, Macho Women with Guns, Shadowrun, Vampire, etc.