What was so bad about DMing 3x?

[Kahuna Burger]

folks keep cheering the "npcs/monster and PC use different rules" philosophy on the basis that it's lack made 3x "fun to play but horrible to DM". I don't get it. I love to DM, and I am as happy to DM 3x as any other system. The only reasons I don't currently DM are practical. I would rather DM than play any day of the week. (in fact, I skip gamedays when there isn't a slot left for me to run a game in, because I've found that they aren't worth the travel effort if I "only" play.)

What is so bad about DMing 3x, and do you enjoy DMing other systems but not that one? Help me out, because 4e to me is introducing a system I don't like to fix a "problem" I'd never heard of.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

For me, a lot of it is feel, brought on by certain things in the 3.x system. I can say that power-balance, levels above 10, magic items, etc. have caused me plenty of headaches. I can't really communicate exactly, though, for two reasons. One, it's hard to put my thumb on exact issues, only general things. Two, there are obviously things that I can do to alleviate these issues, but those things make it less fun for me.

In the end, I have to just say that a combination of elements cause DMing 3.x to be less fun for me than DMing a different system. So far, only two systems have noticeably improved my enjoyment - True20 and Star Wars SAGA Edition. True20, though, has different issues and isn't a perfect solution (although the work-arounds are more satisfying than the work-arounds for 3.x). SWSE is still new, so I am not sure if it will pass the tests (3.x used to be fun, too). So far, SWSE alleviates most of the bad, adds some good and doesn't do too much to cause me concern.

What I've seen from 4e, to this point, is telling me that it is going to alleviate a lot of what I don't like, add some stuff that looks good and also add some stuff that I may not like. I'm still a bit ambivalent towards it, but I think that it will probably do enough to get me to run it.

 

[helium3]

Eh. As far as making NPC's is concerned the most time consuming part has always been the equipment. Skills can be a pain, but only if I decide to care and I rarely do. I don't really get what people are complaining about, but I also like advancing monsters and have a lot of practice doing it.

I've actually found that the part of DM'ing that's most time consuming for me is when I try to put together material that's more than just notes. It's like I have this weird fetish for making all my notes look like published material. Not that it does look like that, I just find that if I'm not rather strict with myself I end up wasting too much time on material that the players don't care about.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

i am with u man i dont have any issues with it myself. somefolks seem to make it harder on themselves really but i myself like a complete and fair system were what players do is the same type of things npc can pull off.alot i have seen seem to find npc makeing as the biggiest issue it seems or trying to run high level combat. the frist i never spend more then 5 or 6 min on normly and the second with prep its easy to run i have found . other folks will have other issues im sure, but to each its on huh

 

[MichaelSomething]

Okay, try this. Create an evil NPC party that can stand up to a Codzilla, Batman wizard, a poucing Barbarian, and <insert most broken skill monkey here>. Use at least one prestige per NPC and have at least one of them be a CR 3+ Monster with class levels. If possible, give one of them an animal companion to ride and use the combat riding feats. Have another one fly around a lot. Everyone is level 17th. Tell me how long you take to plan it all out.

 

[TerraDave]

I agree with much of the above, but my biggest pratical problem is just pulling a monster out of the MM, and seeing it array of feats, traits, spell-like abilities, and other fidly bits and figuring out what to actually do with it. How long do I spend looking stuff up, and when do I just throw it in there and probably miss some key things about it. (as an aside, I can work around this with prep...but see, thats part of the problem).

At lower levels this is ok, at higher levels it just gets nuts.

I really like what I have seen so far with the Pit Feind and Spined Devil.

 

[drothgery]

What is so bad about DMing 3x, and do you enjoy DMing other systems but not that one? Help me out, because 4e to me is introducing a system I don't like to fix a "problem" I'd never heard of.

Basically, running mid to high level games requires an enormous amount of prep work, high-level combat involves a lot of corner-case rules interactions and tends to create breeze-through or dead situations.

 

[Steely Dan]

Okay, try this. Create an evil NPC party that can stand up to a Codzilla, Batman wizard, a poucing Barbarian, and <insert most broken skill monkey here>. Use at least one prestige per NPC and have at least one of them be a CR 3+ Monster with class levels. If possible, give one of them an animal companion to ride and use the combat riding feats. Have another one fly around a lot. Everyone is level 17th. Tell me how long you take to plan it all out.

…I…I…I got a headache…

 

[Nightchilde-2]

Basically, running mid to high level games requires an enormous amount of prep work, high-level combat involves a lot of corner-case rules interactions and tends to create breeze-through or dead situations.

This.

 

[Cyronax]

Okay, try this. Create an evil NPC party that can stand up to a Codzilla, Batman wizard, a poucing Barbarian, and <insert most broken skill monkey here>. Use at least one prestige per NPC and have at least one of them be a CR 3+ Monster with class levels. If possible, give one of them an animal companion to ride and use the combat riding feats. Have another one fly around a lot. Everyone is level 17th. Tell me how long you take to plan it all out.

Well said. I also hated having to spend hours determining which prestige classes I would allow into the game. I couldn't stand playing in campaigns where the DM just let the players take any PrC they wanted (powergaming invariably ensued followed by whining). Balancing PrCs against the base classes was impossible as 3.X rolled on.