What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content
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AnotherGuy
Hero
Is it your contention that men should not draw women in fantasy in manner that is sexy?
And I'd prefer not to have to define sexy. I think we all know what I mean. Apologies, I'm just trying to avoid tedious conversations.
EDIT: And for the record, regarding your subjects vs objects.
The idea that Beyonce sexualising herself is A-ok, but that an artist taking those repeated depictions of a woman and then drawing a sexy warrior is somehow over the line and being sexist smacks of hypocrisy. It doesn't matter to me, how many links you provide. We can agree to disagree.
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Sepulchrave II
Legend
I'm trying to explain why Beyonce expressing her sexuality is different from male fantasy artists drawing sexualized pictures of women.
People can draw or paint whatever they like. Again, you are conflating notions of "should not" and "cannot" with the actual substance of the discussion.
AnotherGuy
Hero
Beyonce know what makes her attractive and thus delivers on that.
An artist knows what is appealing about a woman and thus delivers on that.
The argument is that the latter is sexist. Do you agree?
Bagpuss
Legend
Yeah it wasn't even like that in the early days of RPGs, for example Aleena the Cleric from the 1983 Red box D&D is covered head to toe in in armor. But sure women were much more often presented as a damsel in distress, than PCs and even female fighters often had exposed cleavage.
Yeah they are both about video games, so not sure how useful they are, the CRPG armor (especially the ones coming from Asia) are a lot different from what you tend to get illustrated in tabletop RPGs. The great thing about RPGs is you can visualise your character however you like you aren't tied to what is coded into the game. So even if all the D&D illustrations had bare midriffs (which most don't now) you wouldn't have to.
BrokenTwin
Biological Disaster
Re: Beyonce and female empowerment, I always found that argument a little weird. Is she really dressing like that because she wants to and it makes her feel empowered, or is she dressing like that because that's what's expected of her as a woman in the entertainment industry? Is she choosing those outfits herself, or is there a costume designer behind the scenes putting together her ensembles? A lot of times it feels like her and entertainers like her are selling a "female empowerment fantasy" more than they're actually being empowered women. But I don't know, I can't claim to follow any of them close enough to have a strong opinion about it one way or another.
Some people have expressed some opinions on a D&D forum. None of us have lost our minds and none of us are carrying pitchforks, puritanical or otherwise. What's the point of mischaracterizing this discussion?
AnotherGuy
Hero
Bedrockgames
Legend
I don't know whether it is empowering or not, but I don't see anything wrong with an adult expressing their themselves that way
HaroldTheHobbit
Adventurer
This is interesting. I'm a cis male, but also a feminist. Many of us are well read regarding the male gaze theories where a woman is constructed as an object for male desire, often with the help of specific mediation, styles of make up (or make up itself), and symbolic clothing attires that may refer to women with affection for hire from a male perspective.
On one side I can see how dressing like said women with affection for hire is a symbolic action for reappropriation of clothing, makeup and other symbols kidnapped by the patriarchy for the purpose of objectification of women.
On the other side, such clothing, makeup and other symbols are still powerful in attracting the negative male gaze, so from a feministic perspective using said attributes in my humble and probably uneducated view is very contra-productive - in practice it uphold the objectification of women. I would be very happy to be schooled and corrected on the subject.
It's kind of like if I as a socialist would run a stock broker company as a way of reappropriating ownership of production from capitalists.
AnotherGuy
Hero
If you read my comment upthread I said I appreciate both styles of art. I'm not advocating for one or another be removed from RPGs.Yeah, these comments all sound pretty harmless to me. Or is it puritanical to expect a wide range diverse art for many people and tastes in your tabletop RPG, not mainly art that arouses erotic titillation mainly aimed at cis-gender heterosexual males?
So perhaps this shouldn't be addressed to me, right?
EDIT: As for my comment on puritanical - I'm not the one that referred to D&D art as erotica.
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Kariotis
Explorer
Well, you seemed to imply that people who have an issue with sexualized art in tabletop RPGs and pushing back against this being called "puritanical" or "taking the pitchforks out" are in the wrong by supplying a number of quotes from the thread, and I replied to that. I'm not taking offence with your personal views, but with that of some parts of tabletop roleplayer demographics who would agree that "there's nothing wrong with rpg art as is".
Bedrockgames
Legend
This seems like an odd way to look at human sexuality and beauty. Some women like wearing makeup, like wearing clothing that they think is sexy, and there are a range of views on what makes something sexy. Especially for an artist like Beyonce who is expressing herself on stage and trying to have an impact on the audience, as well as visually represent her music, I just don't see the issue. I would also say, her looking beautiful on stage, looking sexy on stage, none of this makes her a reference to 'women with affection for hire'. It is art and performance. Now people can take that too seriously. They can mistake what they are seeing on stage for her real life personality. But that is on the person making that judgement, not on her. And the reverse is true as well, people don't have to look like Beyonce or dress like Beyonce to be beautiful or to perform. There are lots of performers who downplay that element, dress in ways that put focus elsewhere. Music performance has a visual component though so you are going to make choices about attire, makeup etc. As long as the artist is making the choices because that is what they want, I have no issue with it.
Also in real life, people dress to appeal to others all the time. I am going to a wedding dinner in a couple of weeks. I am going to dress and have my hair done so I feel handsome. My wife is going to probably wear a dress and make up so she can feel pretty. When we are at home we dress down more. And different people will have different notions about what makes them pretty or handsome but they should be allowed to pursue those notions without being judged. I think these things are very much situation and context dependent.
BrokenTwin
Biological Disaster
I mean, you can have sexy AND inclusive art, those aren't mutually exclusive concepts. I don't think pin-up fantasy has been a popular style of RPG art for a while now.Yeah, these comments all sound pretty harmless to me. Or is it puritanical to expect a wide range diverse art for many people and tastes in your tabletop RPG, not mainly art that arouses erotic titillation mainly aimed at cis-gender heterosexual males?
AnotherGuy
Hero
I think art within the hobby has changed over the years in that it is far more balanced amongst the sexes which is something I agreed it should be as per @BrokenTwin's post which we both XP'ed. I'm ok with males and females showing flesh in the art. Many of us, are inspired by art. Some of us are artists. There is an entire thread here where Danny posts inspiring pics, some of them are sexy.
No one is advocating for RPGs to include Luis Royo or Boris Vallejo styled-art, especially within the D&D, but I do not agree with the comments that AD&D art is deemed as erotica (Faolyn) or that it was the art that detracted females from joining the hobby (Hussar).
I think there is a decent middle-ground for everyone to get what they want. The only thing I dont want in my D&D is anime. Cause then I'll be grabbing my pitchfork.
You and I have very different ideas of what constitutes losing one's mind. And of pitchforks.
AnotherGuy
Hero
My post was obviously tongue and cheek and you're smart enough to know that.
No one is asking for erotica within D&D. I just wonder why when that was mentioned, you didn't think that comment was mischaracterised.
Kariotis
Explorer
I think art within the hobby has changed over the years in that it is far more balanced amongst the sexes which is something I agreed it should be as per @BrokenTwin's post which we both XP'ed. I'm ok with males and females showing flesh in the art. Many of us, are inspired by art. Some of us are artists. There is an entire thread here where Danny posts inspiring pics, some of them are sexy.
No one is advocating for RPGs to include Luis Royo or Boris Vallejo styled-art, especially within the D&D, but I do not agree with the comments that AD&D art is deemed as erotica (Faolyn) or that it was the art that detracted females from joining the hobby (Hussar).
I think there is a decent middle-ground for everyone to get what they want. The only thing I dont want in my D&D is anime. Cause then I'll be grabbing my pitchfork.
I think Faolyn meant that much RPG art veers into the realm of covert erotica, which is hard to deny - it's made to create sexual titillation and often has no justification within or without the game world except for that, and that's what erotica is.
The part Hussar mentioned is absolutely and definitely true. I've heard so many first-hand accounts of women who only felt comfortable to play TTPRGs once the amount of sexist art started to drop and you weren't consistently called a frigid bitch anymore for speaking up about some of the degrading illustrations you had to put up with, and that were completely normalized for decades.
With your last point I agree though. There is definitely a middle ground for all of us, and respect and good-faith communication are key for that.
Ah, I see. It seemed to me that you were being dismissive of other people's opinions through hyperbole. Thanks for clarifying.
Why? Because the first mention of erotica was in response to a question about pin-up art in RPGs. I think pin-up art is reasonably classified as erotica.
EDIT: I didn't intend to get caught up in a conversation about the conversation in this thread.
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