What would a fighter versatile out of combat look like?

[Quickleaf]

I am certain this topic has been covered before! But, I was following some discussion with [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION], and I'm interested in taking a fresh look at it

The question is: what would a fighter who is versatile out of combat look like?

Naturally, it's a loaded question that brings up other questions: Should there be class balance? What does that even mean? Should a wizard have monopoly on out of combat versatility, or at least dominance? Should out of combat versatility be an option for the fighter, be baked into the core class, or be left out entirely? Does out of combat versatility destroy the archetype of "fighter"? ...and those are all fine questions, but not the question I'm posing

Here's my first stab at answering...what's yours?

Evaluate Combatant
Fighters can gauge how skilled an opponent is. This might include learning attack bonus, defense, HP, level/HD, whether they're a minion/standard/elite/solo, if you recognize their fighting style, or even a vulnerability.

Campaigning
Fighters can appraise military encampments, fortifications, and military units. This might include learning the name of the unit and it's CO, the number of soldiers and their rough strength, morale, and overall fighting readiness, where their supply lines go, operation of siege weapons, and any gaping holes in defenses or weak points in logistics.

Chopping Wood & Mining Gold
Fighters can have improved non-combat uses for weapons. For example, an axe in a fighter's hand deals more damage against wood, while a pick deals more damage against stone.

Grit
Fighters can shake off effects, even if only temporarily or at some cost, that debilitate the rest of the party. While this could be used in combat, it could also be used outside to, for example, enter a smoky burning building and stave off succumbing to the smoke long enough to rescue some townsfolk.

Scarred Reputation
Just cause there is magic healing doesn't mean there aren't scars. Fighters get clawed, stabbed, and bludgeoned on a regular basis! The scars can be used to intimidate or, with a particularly savage scar, to make a Reputation check or something of the sort.

Tankard
If there is one class that tends to hit the tavern more than the others, it's the fighter. Whether its resistance to inebriation, free ale & wenches, a bonus to Gather Information/Streetwise in taverns, or extra questions a fighter can ask in a tavern, they should get some benefit when carousing.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Roy.

 

[Derren]

The problem is that every mundane out of combat ability is more of a skill area than a class ability one. Magical out of combat abilities of course requires one to know magic which makes them class based.
That is the ultimate problem with the "out of combat abilities" discussion.

What you propose seems to be to remove skills, at least as a learn able thing, and split them up between the different classes like in 2E when only the rogue could detect traps, etc.
That would work mechanically, but isn't very good for verisimilitude.
Personally I would prefer a more 3E approach where skills which are independent from class cover out of combat abilities only that this time casters are at the bottom of the skill ladder making them dependent on spells where other characters can use skills.

 

[Minigiant]

Roy.

That is only because Roy as good stats and the rest of his party is mentally deficient.

You'd have to make a base system that doesn't rely on high stats or skill focus but at the same time allow base checks to remain valuable with magic around.

Or you could give nonphysical ability scores strong combat aspects and encourage fighters to invest in them. Or lessen the incentive to have high physical stats.

With class skills stripped out, my friends Zen archer fighter served as a spotter, lie detector, and back up scout in 3rd.

Basically if fighter stats were not so locked up, a fighter would look a lot like a rogue.

 

[Quickleaf]

The problem is that every mundane out of combat ability is more of a skill area than a class ability one. Magical out of combat abilities of course requires one to know magic which makes them class based.
That is the ultimate problem with the "out of combat abilities" discussion.

What you propose seems to be to remove skills, at least as a learn able thing, and split them up between the different classes like in 2E when only the rogue could detect traps, etc.
That would work mechanically, but isn't very good for verisimilitude.
Personally I would prefer a more 3E approach where skills which are independent from class cover out of combat abilities only that this time casters are at the bottom of the skill ladder making them dependent on spells where other characters can use skills.

So, you don't have any ideas? I'm teasing, just hoping to steer this thread onto a more idea-positive note than to be yet another reiteration of why the idea wouldn't work.

I definitely am not proposing removing skills. I'm not proposing making fighters skill monkeys either.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I definitely am not proposing removing skills. I'm not proposing making fighters skill monkeys either.

Perhaps the solution is to add more optional skill slots to all classes. Let the player choose which skills to select, in order to allow them to choose their preferred focus. By giving the additional classes the same number of skills you don't dilute the skill monkeys.

 

[Cadence]

In PF, maybe the skirmisher ranger or the tactician fighter.
In Green Ronin's Black Company Campaign Setting, maybe the great general, topkick, or veteran prestige classes.

 

[Manbearcat]

This one is always tough as its so dependent upon so many other questions (the ones you mention in your lead post!), but I'll take a crack.

One of the best things the 4e did for the Fighter, IME, is (i) they coupled all of the relevant Altheltics sub-categories together (such that the skill itself carries considerably heft) and (ii) made it all but impossible for Fighters to not be great athletes. This is how it should be. Fighters are either genetically advantaged, honed by relentless training, refined by technique, or a combination of all three. This inevitably leads to someone who has superior spatial awareness, proprioception, core strength, muscle memory, and body balance. Fighters should be great at all of the relevant Athletics by proxy of this.

I've always liked the idea of Fighters having some sort of Renown or Reputation that yields them advantage (and perhaps interesting thematic complications) in interactions (from Intimidating to Diplomancing). They may not have a great Charisma score, but this bonus makes up for that (or buffs it if they do have an above average Charisma). This could provide all manner of bonuses, from intelligence (such as Streetwise), to the ability to curry favor by gaining field support (such as troops/followers), downtime lodgings to recover (such as a barracks or temple to the God of War), to scene-transitioning-transport (straight to the sought locale with a fortified caravan or a skyship - Poor Man's Teleport).

Tools of the Trade. Unfortunately, all of those proficiencies (all armors, all weapons) are supposed to advantage Fighters and be a large part of their "total package value", but inevitably they just yield a singular point of specialization. If there was more utility built into Fighter proficiencies (different armors being better in different situations - such as heavy, cumbersome armor for mass combats but light, mobile armor for duels - or different weapons being better in different situations - such as 4e handles it in the Fighter Weaponmaster Exploits) overall.

I think Fighters should have those as default. Then you get into sub-categories that they can spec into. They're likely have exposure to such as Pilot/Ride, Insight (learning to read people through gaming, leading, or serving), Survival, Field Triage/Heal, Intimidate, Inspire/Bolster Courage/Instill Belief.

Dungeon World of course has some great Fighter abilities that any High Fantasy system should take advantage of. The ability for Epic Level Fighters to actually see the fight before it happens (play it out in their mind - sort of a mundane precog), and see who lives, see who dies, and gain advantage from that is particularly awesome.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] Yeah there are lots of variables. For the purposes of my OP, I was basically taking a "make any assumptions that you want to or feel you need to" to make a fighter versatile out of combat.

For example, Renown. Totally agree that should be available to fighters, no matter whether there is a Reputation system in the rules or not.

Another idea I had...

Arms Lore
The fighter knows what weapon groups are best suited to which foe, e.g. Bludgeoning skeletons. Also, the fighter can use the near-equivalent of an Identify spell when examining a magic weapon, and maybe something akin to the Bard's legend lore just for weapons only.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Manbearcat Yeah there are lots of variables. For the purposes of my OP, I was basically taking a "make any assumptions that you want to or feel you need to" to make a fighter versatile out of combat.

For example, Renown. Totally agree that should be available to fighters, no matter whether there is a Reputation system in the rules or not.

Another idea I had...

Arms Lore
The fighter knows what weapon groups are best suited to which foe, e.g. Bludgeoning skeletons. Also, the fighter can use the near-equivalent of an Identify spell when examining a magic weapon, and maybe something akin to the Bard's legend lore just for weapons only.

For the record, I like every one of your ideas (lead post and Arms Lore above). They're all thematically on-point and regardless of the system dynamics, there should be a way to mechanize them.