What would D&D look like without the emphasis on minis & maps?

[tburdett]

D&D without maps and minis is just 'Cops and Robbers' or 'Cowboys and Indians' with extra rules.

 

[cildarith]

D&D without maps and minis is just 'Cops and Robbers' or 'Cowboys and Indians' with extra rules.

And with minis it is just 'Cops and Robbers' or 'Cowboys and Indians' with extra rules and little dolls. How quaint.

 

[tburdett]

You obviously missed the point, so here it is. Without maps and minis there is NO way that a fair and accurate accounting of player and creature positioning can take place. The game turns into "I'm not there, I'm over there. No you aren't, you are there. I said I moved over there. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't." Why anyone would think that this was preferable to having a map and miniatures that clearly defined player and creature locations is beyond me.

 

[cildarith]

I got your point. I disagree with it completely.

I've RPGed for 25 years without those fiddly little bits (aka miniatures) all over the place and have witnessed very, very few of the arguments you describe.

Miniatures and battlemats slow combat down to the point where it detracts significantly from the atmosphere of the game and players are falling asleep at the game table or getting districted by non-game related things around the room, waiting for the their turn to count squares.

Without minis, combats move along at a much brisker pace, everyone pays attention, and no one gets bored waiting for their turn to act.

YMMV.

 

[Harlock]

I agree with Farland. I gamed for 21 years without minis then switched. I tried it one time with players who were reluctant and we found out that it took no more time (actually less as DMs had fewer, "can I sneak attack him?" questions) and actually made combat flow very smoothly. Of course, YMMV but our group is very much into thinking and tactics so seeing where everything is is a very nice advantage and leads to a lot less of, "well, sorry, I rule that orc was out of range of your lightning" fights. No more arbitrary choices because it's all laid out, saves time and frankly, adds an aspect I never knew I was missing from D&D. I'll not go back by choice.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Miniatures and battlemats slow combat down to the point where it detracts significantly from the atmosphere of the game and players are falling asleep at the game table or getting districted by non-game related things around the room, waiting for the their turn to count squares.

Without minis, combats move along at a much brisker pace, everyone pays attention, and no one gets bored waiting for their turn to act.

Interesting. My experience is the precise opposite. I played without minis from OD&D onward, only switching to minis with 3E.

Before, without minis, I used to see a lot of bickering, confusion, needless questions, and lack of focus, whereas now players can just glance at the mat. Now, with minis, combat is clearer, quicker, and offers a lot more options now with minis/map (or other representations ... M&Ms, if you like) than without. IME and IMO, of course.

But the real beauty of the D&D system is it can be used quite nicely both ways, so everyone can use the system they prefer.

 

[Olive]

I got your point. I disagree with it completely.

I've RPGed for 25 years without those fiddly little bits (aka miniatures) all over the place and have witnessed very, very few of the arguments you describe.

Miniatures and battlemats slow combat down to the point where it detracts significantly from the atmosphere of the game and players are falling asleep at the game table or getting districted by non-game related things around the room, waiting for the their turn to count squares.

Without minis, combats move along at a much brisker pace, everyone pays attention, and no one gets bored waiting for their turn to act.

YMMV.

And my milage does. Using battlemaps has sped up our games enourmously. Without question. And while you've been lucky enough to have players who don't try to second guess everything you say, not all of us are.

Without changing rules, 3e looks slower without mats and minis.

 

[cildarith]

And while you've been lucky enough to have players who don't try to second guess everything you say, not all of us are.

This is a good point.

I have been fortunate to have had the same core group of players for most of those 25 years, and they know what to expect from me. Most of the positioning arguments occurred in the early years, needless to say. We tried a few games with minis and counters when 3E came out, and the general consensus was to scrap them after two sessions!

 

[tburdett]

I've RPGed for 25 years without those fiddly little bits (aka miniatures) all over the place and have witnessed very, very few of the arguments you describe.

Irrelevant. I've known a lot of people who have gamed for a long time who were still rule butchering idiots.

Miniatures and battlemats slow combat down to the point where it detracts significantly from the atmosphere of the game and players are falling asleep at the game table or getting districted by non-game related things around the room, waiting for the their turn to count squares.

That is amazing. You just stated above that you have "RPGed for 25 years without those fiddly little bits (aka miniatures) all over the place..." and now you are an authority on the subject? I have gamed with and without miniatures for an equal length of time and can authoritatively state that it does NOT detract significantly from the atmosphere of the game.

Without minis, combats move along at a much brisker pace, everyone pays attention, and no one gets bored waiting for their turn to act.

Again, how can you know this, or speak on this subject, if you haven't used miniatures?

 

[Aaron L]

D&D without maps and minis is just 'Cops and Robbers' or 'Cowboys and Indians' with extra rules.

When you make an offensive statement like that, prepare to be retaliated against, and don't get so uppity.