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D&D 4E What would make you decide against 4e?

I will not get 4E if ...

... you have to subscribe to DDI to play the game for some reason
... you have to continuously buy WotC minis to play the game for some reason
... certain race/class archetypes are unignorably better than others
... multi-classing still doesn't work

but most, the two deal killers would be:

... it's less fun than the Iron Heroes/Bo9S/SWSE hybrid I'm currently playing
... the unrevealed eighth race is "Kender."




ha ha. Just kidding about the Kender bit. That's easily fixed with a house rule like "Anyone who tries to play a Kender has thirty seconds to leave my apartment or they will be killed."
 

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If I can't create an elven fighter/mage--my favorite character type--just by using the core books, then I'm out.

If the word "gish" is used anywhere in the core books to refer to anything other than a githyanki fighter mage, I will buy a copy of the book to use as a litter box liner for my cats.
 

  • I wouldn't switch to 4e if it became a boardgame or so much like a boardgame that imagination took a back seat.

    So far I think I can fix any of the fluff that they change.
  • if spells only did damage, I would not switch to 4e.
  • if they made the target market 4-12 year old video gamers, I wouldn't switch. I like complex plots.
 

Celebrim said:
Good list. Let me add to it:

a) No significant cleanup of the bases classes in terms of flexibility and space covering, quickly leading to 3.5's unending proliferation of classes, prestige classes, and unplaytested class power combinations all over again (or even worse).
b) No significant improvement in the big holes in the 3.X skill system - spot vs. hide, diplomacy, vague professions or vaguely defined skill areas, etc. leading to no real improvement in handling commonly encountered cases.
c) Encounters that tend to play out in very formulaic ways. Ei, everyone uses thier per encounter powers in the same sequences every combat.
d) Gamist per encounter concepts, for example, mundane classes that mysteriously can only perform a particular manuever once per encounter even though they have the physical resources to perform an equally strenous but different maneuver in the next round. Encounter beginings and endings that are vaguely and arbitarily defined under the rules.
e) Lots and lots of actions that are passively triggered and so must be maintained in memory at all times to run encounter smoothly/correctly (this is IMO worse/harder to run than lots of choices for actively choosen abilities).
f) Reduced player choice. For example, Wizards that cannot be built as necromancers, summoners, enchanters, etc. without new base classes, new talent trees, prestige classes, etc.
g) Design bandaids by which I mean root problems are ignored in favor of patching up the system in some other area. For example, per encounter resources slapped on as solution to 15 minute adventuring day.
h) Scope reduction as a system solution, by which I mean problimatic or difficult features of the system are simply removed because fixing them seems too difficult. For example, 'save or condition' is problimatic because it bypasses ablative hitpoints, so the option are simply removed rather than the system fixed. Or for example, overly narrow skills which are rarely used are simply removed leading to situations where either its not clear what skill applies or else character suddenly is found to be unexpectedly proficient in seemingly unrelated skill. For example, removing a little used profession skill resulting in all characters with wilderness lore being experts in handling sailing vessels, or all tightrope walkers also being expert kayakers, etc. Problimatic spells (divinations, shape changing) solved by thier removal.
i) Balance achieved through cosmetic variaty. That is, all classes are fundamentally identical spellcasters with common arrays of abilities that in practice differ only slightly outside of the classes fluff. For example, a fighter with the per encounter ability 'long strike', 'knockdown' and 'power attack' and a wizard with the per encounter abilities 'energy blast', 'telekinetic push', and 'arcane blow' where the various abilities are fundamentally interchangable except for thier flavor. Alternately, everyone explicitly plays a spellcaster in some form, resulting in a Wuxia world were anyone who is anyone can 'fly'.
j) Loss of genericness. Flavor so intimately tied to game mechanics that a particular game world is virtually assumed by the text and conversion to different assumptions are difficult.
k) Christmas tree/multiple overlapping transient buffs/effects back in new clothes with little or no net gain to justify the disruption.
l) Rapid acscension to 'epic' levels of power assumed by the game system.
m) Demonic/diabolic themes pushed as fundamental to game play.

pawsplay and celebrim hit pretty much how i feel as well. I will also add it depends on the OGL and if enough good 3rd party support it. Since I have not be a fan of most of the WotC stuff made but have liked a lot of the 3rd party stuff. Which is what keep me playing 3E for as long as i did.

I am still on a wait and see but right now to much sounds like things I won't like. I am hoping I am wrong but my list is close enough to theirs I will just quote it to save me time.
 

sckeener said:
if they made the target market 4-12 year old video gamers, I wouldn't switch. I like complex plots.
[/list]

I must be an idiot, because I find the plots of most RPG video games to be sufficiently complex.

As for young kids----I've looked at a couple of my nephew's manga books. Apparently, kids like complex plots too.
 

Hobo said:
Let me make sure I understand; and I'm not trying to pick apart the reasoning, just make sure I'm grokking it. Having an OGL is important on the off chance that you decide to write something for the game and want to publish it via internet, vanity press, etc.? Without that remote possibility, you won't even consider the new edition?

In my case, it's not an 'off chance,' it's a fairly significant proportion of my current income. So, yeah. I'm not going to pour over three new (and for me, expensive; consider the budget implied by the first line) core books and take the time to master the rules if I'm not going to be able to work with them.

Hobo said:
And again, we've already been told that the OGL will continue to be supported through 4e?

Note that I called out in my first post that it would have to undergo, quote, "a major reversal."

I have no reason to believe this was the case, but nor did I see any indication that the thread was looking only for things I *expected* to happen.
 

Wormwood said:
I must be an idiot, because I find the plots of most RPG video games to be sufficiently complex.

Considering that the average age of electronic gamers is 30, I somehow doubt Final Fantasy 12 was targeted to 4-year-olds by Square-Enix's marketing department. Or even 12-year-olds. ;)

And I agree about the plots, as long as you're referring to JRPGs. Certainly I've never played a tabletop RPG campaign that came anywhere close to the depth and complexity of Xenogears, especially if you admit the supplementary materials. I've only read a handful of novels that do.

Frankly, I'm not sure what, outside of some fringe edutainment software, is targeted to 4-year-olds. But then, the post you're responding to is almost certainly either deliberately obtuse or sarcastic, seeing as how it has no connection to reality and doesn't seem meant to.
 

Mistwell said:
More like about 10% or less, really.
I disagree.

Most people who are satisfied with something don't bother to say they are satisfied. It's those who are upset that are most vocal. And given you have a number of people in this thread voicing opinions against 4e that are not even playing 3.5e to begin with, I am not even sure many of the complainers represent lost customers.
True. But I'm not basing my opinion on people who are posting here. Heck, to some extent it is people who have completed stepped to the sideline that I find interesting.

Trust me, I am 100% with you on the "I've never bought from you before and NOW I'm really never going to buy from you again" silliness. And I also understand the vocal minority effect.
But those are not driving my thinking.
 

BryonD said:
I disagree.


True. But I'm not basing my opinion on people who are posting here. Heck, to some extent it is people who have completed stepped to the sideline that I find interesting.

Trust me, I am 100% with you on the "I've never bought from you before and NOW I'm really never going to buy from you again" silliness. And I also understand the vocal minority effect.
But those are not driving my thinking.

Fair enough.
 

Hobo said:
So? Let's assume the worst (which we already know not to be true, so that's another reason why this whole line of thought suprises me.) 4e isn't open content.

You're not going to continue to get quirky, fun or generally neat stuff for 3.5 when the market has mostly moved on. So why does moving to 4e have anything to do with it being open or not?

Sure you would. The 3.5 SRD will remain OGC no matter what (you can't revoke material that's placed under the OGL) and if WotC didn't open 4th, a lot of publishers would keep 3.5 alive. Now, I don't think that will happen but if it did staying with 3.5 would become a lot better supported than it likely will be otherwise.

For me, there's no question that i will look at 4e. Playing it depends on the people I game with, most of whom right now are leaning against it.
 

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