What Would Persuade You To Play A Fully Classed Fighter?

[airwalkrr]

I've been working on some variants of the classes in the player's handbook because I feel some are innately more powerful than others. That, in and of itself, is an old topic. However, I would like to pose a question to some of you. What would persuade you to play a fully classed fighter? It seems to me like, although the fighter is by no means one of the weaker classes, it is often discarded early on in favor of some prestige class. Now I realize that allowing prestige classes is a DM's option so if I don't want my players to take prestige classes, I should just ban them. However, I don't want to do that. I like prestige classes and feel they ought to be taken advantage of occassionally to add a bit of flavor or specialization to a character. Most of all, I want players to feel as if the choice to level in a prestige class isn't an easy one to make. I want to tempt them with benefits for staying with their single class. Now people level in prestige classes after starting from all of the base classes, but in my (albiet limited) experience, the fighter is the class most often done away with.

Here is my proposed change to the fighter. It is quite simply an extrapolation of the 3.5 philosophy which sought to give fighters the ability to specialize in a single weapon moreso than any other class. To begin with, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization have been renamed. They are now Improved Weapon Focus and Improved Weapon Specialization respectively. In addition, these feats now grant a +2 to weapon attack rolls and +4 to weapon damage rolls respectively (this stacks with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization). For the icing on the cake, I have developed two high-level feats.

Greater Weapon Focus
Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe, for which you have already selected Improved Weapon Focus. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You are especially good at using this weapon, and know how to use it to great advantage on weak spots in your foe's armor.
Prerequisite: Proficiency with selected weapon. Improved Weapojn Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 16th.
Benefit: Once per round, when making a full attack action, you may choose to have one attack with the selected weapon effectively reduce half of your target's bonus to AC from armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses for purposes of that attack only.
Special: You can gain Greater Weapon Focus multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A fighter must have Greater Weapon Focus with a given weapon to gain the Greater Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.
A fighter may select Greater Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38).

Greater Weapon Specialization
Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe, for which you have already selected Improved Weapon Focus. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage with this weapon whenever you have previously wounded the target.
Prerequisite: Proficiency with selected weapon. Improved Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 20th.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully hit an enemy in combat, all iterative attacks made with that weapon deal an extra 1d6 points of damage. This damage bonus is cumulative but ends at the beginning of the character's next turn. This damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
This bonus damage may apply to an off-hand weapon, but attacks from an off-hand weapon may not benefit from attacks made with the main-hand weapon and vice versa.
Special: You can gain Greater Weapon Specialization multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A fighter may select Greater Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats (see page 38).

Additionally, the following text is added to the special rules of Improved Weapon Specialization:
A fighter must have Improved Weapon Specialization with a given weapon to gain the Greater Weapon Focus feat for that weapon.

A similar clause is added to Weapon Specialization required it before Improved Weapon Focus.

Thoughts and comments?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I've seen more than one fix for the fighter that simply gives a feat at every level instead of every other level. The rationale is that the fighter gains little at higher levels since feats get less and less useful the more you have. Once you hit level 10, you have to start taking feats that don't do you much good or you have to try to specialize in a second weapon or fighting style, which doesn't do much for your primary weapon or fighting style. You lose your focus. However, with enough feats, you can actually take a decent stab at making the switch from being focused on one type of fighting to being a generalist. Add the Complete series and it's cake. A fighter can stay on top of his focus until level 20, and the extra feats not only make sure he stays useful, but he also has a reason not to take a PrC.

Of course, I haven't seen this in actual play, so I can't judge whether this rationale holds up in "real-world" conditions. But I've seen two different systems break down the classes into abilities that cost character points to buy, and in both cases, a fighter with a feat each level balances out. So, take that with whatever salt you like, but someone out there is playing with fighters like that. Perhaps they'll pop by and give some input.

 

[nameless]

I've seen more than one fix for the fighter that simply gives a feat at every level instead of every other level. The rationale is that the fighter gains little at higher levels since feats get less and less useful the more you have. Once you hit level 10, you have to start taking feats that don't do you much good or you have to try to specialize in a second weapon or fighting style, which doesn't do much for your primary weapon or fighting style. You lose your focus. However, with enough feats, you can actually take a decent stab at making the switch from being focused on one type of fighting to being a generalist. Add the Complete series and it's cake. A fighter can stay on top of his focus until level 20, and the extra feats not only make sure he stays useful, but he also has a reason not to take a PrC.

Of course, I haven't seen this in actual play, so I can't judge whether this rationale holds up in "real-world" conditions. But I've seen two different systems break down the classes into abilities that cost character points to buy, and in both cases, a fighter with a feat each level balances out. So, take that with whatever salt you like, but someone out there is playing with fighters like that. Perhaps they'll pop by and give some input.

The only problem I see with that is that it rewards a short "dip" into fighter even more. Instead of trading off some of the needed feats to multi-class, a mid-level fighter isn't trading anything much at all.

 

[Ferrix]

About your feats:

Greater Weapon Spec: the d6 extra is an average increase of +3 to your damage not affected by critical hits, nor does it seem to deal damage on that first hit which starts the effect. A pretty crappy feat if you tell me. Perhaps +1d6 damage on all hits, and +Xd10 on a critical where X equals the critical multiplier minus 1. That would make it exactly like the burst weapon special ability which is about the worth of a really high level feat. It's not that much extra damage.

Greater Weapon Focus: Interesting but a bit of a pain cause you have to do more math than normal, just make it a touch attack once a round during a full attack, or as a full attack.

Add Superior Weapon Focus & Superior Weapon Specialization, with level 18 and 20 as the pre-reqs and make them near epic equivalents and you've got some stuff to look forward to, maybe.

Also, creating different feats that are fighter only that aren't weapon specific might be a good idea for those fighters who are focused differently. (Greater Bullrush, Superior Bullrush, Superior Cleave, Greater Trip, Superior Trip, Greater Combat Expertise, Improved Weapon Finesse) All of those could become a feat tree.

 

[maggot]

I like the idea of one feat per level after 10th. That way dipping is the same, but you have a reason to stick with fighter for 20 levels.

Another good idea is BAB +21 and five attacks at 20th level. This one might get some to stick if you play near epic, but it is too far away for most people.

I don't know about combining the two.

You're feats seem okay, if a bit complicated. Why rename the feats? Why not just have the new feats be "Mighty Weapon Focus" or some such? And why call it "Weapon Focus" when it doesn't work like Weapon Focus.

For what you are looking for, Mighty Weapon Focus that gives +3 to hit at levels 16, and Mighty Weapon Specialization that gives +6 damage at level 20 might do the trick. Stacking the bonuses could be over the top.

But this "more fighter only feat" solution assumes your new Weapon Focus feat is better than any other feat they could get, and better than any prestige class ability they could get.

One last idea: Make Weapon Focus +1 to hit, and Weapon Specialization +1 damage. These feats would be available to everyone. Fighters would have special abilities at levels 5,9,13, and 17 that increased the damage from Weapon Spec by +1, and another ability that kicked in at 11th and 19th that increased weapon focus by +1. (You could use 4,8,12,16,20, and 8 and 16, but those would hit feat levels). This would encourage levels of fighter, but not use up all their bonus feats with Weapon Focus/ImprovedWeapon Focus, GreaterWeaponFocus, MightyWeaponFocus, ExtremeWeaponFocus, etc.

 

[yoippari]

There was a variant fighter at the wizards forum. It involved choosing essentially fighter bonus feats (though they were completely different list that had a wider variety of choices and you got more of them) where there were three differnt levels of these "feats" that you can access from different levels. The only problem was that there needed to be more second and third grade "feats".

 

[ViciousPenguin]

Fighters do seem to loose a little something a higher levels. A choice of 'Focus' and 'Specialization' feats that are only available at higher levels seems like a reasonable incentive to stay with the class.

Regarding the feats you propose, I think your 'Focus' may be a bit much. It's quite a bit more powerful than another +1 when fighting armored foes but useless when fighting most monsters. Might I suggest an extra attack when full attacking? Perhaps with a -2 as per rapid shot? Just a quick thought.

Additionally, there's no need to change the names of the existing feats. Superior Focus and Superior Specialization (too many S's there?) work just fine for the new feat names. And then there's Supreme . . . !

 

[Stalker0]

You could add in a little Iron Heroes action. After 10th level or something, the fighter's BAB goes up faster than +1 per level. Maybe +4/3 levels or something.

 

[Nyaricus]

Iron Heroes has an interesting fighter ability for thier fighter class - they get Switchable feats. You get 3 of these by level 20, adn IIRC, you can choose, at the beginning of the day, a feat which you meet the prereqs for. The next day, you can choose i different one.

A few points that i would HR, if i were to use this.

1) It must be off the fighters list of bonus feats
2) For progression, let this be an ability @ 6, 12 and 18, and every 6 levels after that (for epic)


In the House Rules forum (which this rightfully belongs; where's a mod when you need one?) there was a recent thread about making fighters more worthwhile for level 20. I had a few posts in it.

Other things you can do > give fighers +25/20/15/10 for level 20 BAB (don't give more than 4 attacks, this was already adressed in ELH)

Give them 'fighting styles' (I made a rought draft in the aforementioned thread)

Archer > +1 to attack/damage with bows @ level 6, 2+ @ 12, +3 @ 18
Footsoldier > same as aboe, but for melee attacks
Cavalryman > same as above, but for melee attacks made on horseback

etc. you can make other ones based on weapon groups and such - like a thrower, a polearmsman, etc

Just a fwe thoughts. See you House Rules. Soon.

 

[Nyaricus]

hey, wow, i posted and there you were, in House Rules.

I must be a prophet! Do i get a funny hat, too?