What would soften the blow?

[Sammael]

I don't get this at all. As long as Eberron's not the core setting--and as much as I like it, I don't think it should be--nobody's forcing you to use it. Why do you care? I'm not an FR fan, but I'm not bitter about WotC publishing it.

Because Eberron products are hogging all of WotC's attention now, and FR is getting just the crumbs?

 

[Lanefan]

I'd go further. Strip out all the crap thats baggage from previous editions. Alignment, random character creation methods, random hit die, vancian casting.

At some point, with changes so large, you have to ask if it's even the same game any more.

That, and randomness is half the fun...that's why we all have lots of dice.

Lanefan

 

[masshysteria]

4E is coming... eventually. When it finally shows itself, these are the things that would soften the blow:

1. Keep the OGL.

2. Combine the PHB and DMG into one core book, like d20 Modern or Star Wars. Basically, lower the entry price by producing one book. MM can remain a seperate line.

3. Make me want it because it is significantly better than 3.5, not just because it is newer: Faster PC and NPC creation, no "dead levels" for any class, grappling rules that dont' bog down gameplay, etc.

4. A generic setting in the core and then campaign settings separately. I would like to see Greyhawk and Eberron revisited, maybe something completely new too.

 

[WayneLigon]

I'd go further. Strip out all the crap thats baggage from previous editions. Alignment, random character creation methods, random hit die, vancian casting.

If most of the original designers were still onboard, I'd be saying that 3E was the thing softening the blow for 4E; ie, that 3E got the playerbase used to change, and that 4E was going to be at least as much change from 3E as 3E was from 1E.

 

[WayneLigon]

That said, I don't foresee them making it the default setting. It'd be a bad idea. While Eberron is popular, there's a sizable market share that doesn't like it, and it's way too far from mainstream views of fantasy to really serve as a solid baseline. Eberron's a great example of what you can do when you deliberately go far afield, but you need to start from more common ground.

Wow, I'd say Eberron was pretty darn close to mainstream ideas of fantasy now and that it was much less far afield in D&D terms than, say, Arcana Unearthed.

 

[The Truth]

Plenty of previews and a 4e SRD that I can read before buying anything.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

At some point, with changes so large, you have to ask if it's even the same game any more.

Given that I think 1e was poorly designed, 2e made more worse than it fixed, yes. I like the d20 system, its fast, the rules are pretty easy to teach to non-gamers, and captures a heroic fantasy feeling well. Some simplifications and tweaks is what the game basically needs.

The things I mentioned are just flat out bad for the game. A fighter with all 1s for hit points and a fighter with all 9's and 10's in the same party are a joke (I've been in a game where one front line combatant had half the HP of the other, same con score). You dont roll to see if the wizard gets a new spell slot, or if the rogue gets more skill points. HP are a chunk of the fighter's basic tools. Fixed HP for all.
Alignment is a pointless and causes more arguments than damn near anything else. You dont need to slap 2 letters on a character sheet to have a personality, and when the only thing (aside from cause arguments) alignment REALLY does is describe that personality...

That, and randomness is half the fun...that's why we all have lots of dice.

Lanefan

Include random character creation for those who desire to force imbalance in their games. It shouldnt be part of the basic design. And moreover, its NOT in the RPGA. That alone should say something.

And before anyone trots out the ever stupid "why do we roll attacks then" argument, you'll note you STILL roll to hit, saves etc in a non-random character generation game. You are just given equal character creation/advancement resources.

 

[iwatt]

Include random character creation for those who desire to force imbalance in their games. It shouldnt be part of the basic design.

Or keep it and give point buy as an option. You know, to keep us grognard's happy.

Why alienate a good chunk of your market (those of us who love our sacred cows), by removing a lot of what identifies this specific RPG as D&D?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Because Eberron products are hogging all of WotC's attention now, and FR is getting just the crumbs?

WotC does a lot of market research, and more importantly, WotC has access to sales numbers. If Eberron is getting more attention than FR, it's because it's currently selling more than FR.

That said, looking at the upcoming schedule for the rest of the year, it doesn't look to me like Eberron products are outnumber FR products by all that much...

 

[Sammael]

WotC does a lot of market research, and more importantly, WotC has access to sales numbers. If Eberron is getting more attention than FR, it's because it's currently selling more than FR.

You asked a question, I tried to answer it. Your line of thinking is very sound, but doesn't account for the fact that WotC is simply not making the FR books that FR fans want to buy (regional supplements and lorebooks). Instead, they are giving us adventures. Yay.

Now, I don't have access to figures, but if Eberron regional supplements are selling, it would take some heavy convincing and data-supported argumentation for me to accept that FR regional supplements wouldn't sell.

That said, looking at the upcoming schedule for the rest of the year, it doesn't look to me like Eberron products are outnumber FR products by all that much...

FR is getting adventures. Lots of adventures. I don't know (m)any FR fans who prefer buying adventures over real FR products, such as regional supplements - of which FR has received exactly zero over the past year, with no such supplements on the horizon either.

So pardon the FR fans for being bitter.

EDIT: And no offense to adventure-writers, but, dudes, I have no interest in pre-made adventures whatsoever. I have bought a grand total of ONE pre-made adventure in my whole life, and I don't think I will ever buy another one. And I am the designated DM of my group.