What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[Herschel]

Yay, I can spend more money to get monsters that work right in my game!! Just like skill challenges!!

Actually, MM1 monsters worked great, depending on your party composition. Gee, just like DR/SR critters in 3E worked great or bad depending on party composition.

And "book bloat" in 3E was huge too, especially with the OGL. Sorry, your rant doesn't hold water as nothing from that standpoint has really changed.

 

[DaveMage]

Again, I'm not disenchanted with 4e, yet I also buy Pathfinder THE RPG!!!! material as well. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I'd call that good planning for when you do become disenchanted with 4E.

 

[Reynard]

Before this thread goes into lock down, I want to point out something I think is important, especially to any Lurking Mearls' (CR 1) and the like out there:

All this arguing and inevitable finger pointing, virtual shouting and general hostility is rooted in something very good and very positive: love for the game. We all love D&D or we wouldn't be here, even if we stopped buying or playing it after Supplement I. And love begets passion, which can often cloud our judgement and make us do and say things we might rather have not said or done. But in those passionate wors and acts, there's truth if you can sift through to find it.

People defending 4E for whatever reason are saying *something* important, and so are the people disparaging it. Advancing any particular edition or playstyle says something of value to those that make the game -- or, now, those that make the GAMES. Because we have to face it: before, there was D&D and Everything Else, and now, due to the OGL, there are many D&D's. Labyrinth Lord and Swords and Wizardry and OSRIC and Pathfinder ARE D&D, even if the trademark had to be filed off, and people play them and purchase their products. Wizards can't ignore that. They can choose to hand over that portion of their potential customer base to others, because it isn't profitable or profitable enough, but they can't ignore it. Every sale of Labyrinth Lord might not be a lost sale of 4E, but it is a lost sale of D&D to WotC.

And for me, the D&Der who loves old school D&D and yet enjoys his new school version as well, that's awesome. I get to have my cake and eat it to. I can purchase new stuff for the best RPG in the world -- any edition of it -- and support the companies that keep it alive, AT THE SAME TIME as voting against 4E with my dollars by not having to support WotC.

But it isn't a boycott. I already have my sights on Gamma World because I am curious what they do with it. It could be awesome. I may even buy an Essentials product or two to see if they made a 4E I could love (probably not, but here's hoping). But if they really want my dollars, if they really want me back as a WotC customer, they'll consider me and a whole lot of people like me worth the expense to do their own official D&D retro-clone, or repackage the old games, or even just sell the PDFs again. Until that time, as I said upthread, someone else is getting paid when I get my D&D fix.

 

[renau1g]

Would you say that this group you are in is "significant"?

I'll say it's as significant as those who play PF because they're disenfranchised with WotC.

 

[renau1g]

Before this thread goes into lock down, I want to point out something I think is important, especially to any Lurking Mearls' (CR 1) and the like out there:

All this arguing and inevitable finger pointing, virtual shouting and general hostility is rooted in something very good and very positive: love for the game. We all love D&D or we wouldn't be here, even if we stopped buying or playing it after Supplement I. And love begets passion, which can often cloud our judgement and make us do and say things we might rather have not said or done. But in those passionate wors and acts, there's truth if you can sift through to find it.

Actually, despite these threads commonly going into personal insult territory pretty quickly, this one is very civil, albeit quite a bit off-topic.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Pathfinder, THE RPG.

Eh, the main reason for the larger split in the community this time is the OGL. People who enjoy buying new material for the game have a real choice this time that they didn't have with previous edition switches. The popularity of Pathfinder the RPG is mainly because Paizo has a reputation for creating quality material. That popularity is a corrallary to 3E continued support, not the cause. If Paizo had continued publishing 3.5 adventures and support I believe the strength of 3E supporters would remain as it is today.

 

[Phaezen]

Would you say that this group you are in is "significant"?

I'll say it's as significant as those who play PF because they're disenfranchised with WotC.

I think there is a significant number of gamers who own a multitude of systems and recognise different systems suit different styles of campaigns. More power to us I think

 

[El Mahdi]

Me personally? No. Just like it wasn't purposely designed to "fire" any customers.

I didn't say it was. Ignoring isn't firing. And "ignoring", in and of itself, isn't necessarily bad. I've merely said that I believe WotC's marketing approach to be foolish and illogical.

All I can speak for is myself. But I think you are making a false assumption. You are minimizing my enjoyment of the design of 4E and making it seem the only reason I followed to 4E is because I like D&D. That's kind of insulting if I understand you correctly. I feel that the system was designed keeping bith new players in mind and those (like me) who had become disenchanted with 3E's design goals and structure.

You didn't understand me correctly. I don't know what your reasons were, or what anybody elses reasons were, for choosing 4E over any other edition. Frankly, I don't care. I have no problem whatsoever with anybody elses choice of system or their reasons for that choice. As I've also said before, I don't have a problem with 4E, and actually like a good portion of it - most of which I use in my houserules.

All I was saying is that I don't believe WotC designed 4E to target long-term players. Period. Not criticism, not compliment, not anything other than a statement of opinion of what I believe the 4E disigners motivations were or weren't. If you don't agree with my opinion, that's cool. You may even have information that shows my belief wrong. In which case I would enjoy your sharing it. But insulting?

I'd love to continue this conversation, as I have found it enjoyable, thought provoking, and genial. If however, you don't think it has been or that it can't remain so, then I've enjoyed talking to you and bid you good day.

 

[Herschel]

The question was whether those disenchanted with 4E was significant. My point was that it was significant enough for a game company to thrive on those looking for a continuation (more or less) of 3.5.

And yet some "disenchanted" with 4E admittedly have never played it or even read it yet continue to rant on internet boards about how awful it is.

As for "significant", WotC is still the big dog.

Paizo puts out a great product for a certain segment and seems to be doing well enough on their scale with it. That's great, but is it really significant "to WotC"? How many play/buy both?

How many people play Warhammer RPG that used to play D&D? World of Darkness? Castles & Crusades? GURPS? Are they also all disenchanted with WotC or 4E? How many of them didn't like 3E also?

Or are you saying Paizo isn't garnering any new customers, just grabbing WotC 3E retreads? I find that rather insulting to Paizo because they work to grow their brand/game too. Just because I don't like the system doesn't mean I don't think they put out a good product that others like (and I buy a number of their products, just not rules stuff).

Some have admitted that the Essentials line intrigues them and they're going to give it a try. That does appear to me that WotC is making reasonable attemps to make some people who were overwhelmed by 4E feel more comfortable and may lure some lapsed players back. I admit to not caring much but now being intrigued by the line as a current player.

 

[El Mahdi]

This thread seems to be veering towards, or beginning to concentrate on, those that are disenchanted with 4E. I believe the majority of posts, mine included, have been about being disenchanted with WotC and WotC marketing. I do know that the OP was specifically about WotC marketing. Why are there people trying to turn a perfectly good thread into one about 4E and not 4E?