What would you change for d20 Modern 2.0

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Based on Shaman's comment, I've been prompted to order the Dark*Matter setting book.

What I'm really looking for is something along the lines of a Delta Green-like setting and campaign set, but with less dependency on CoC mythos.

Job.

Well, Dark*Matter is pretty Delta-Green-ish without the Mythos flavors. But it has a bit of "Alternity" flavor to it, but not too much. I think Dark*Matter is stronger for a "generalist" game because it heels to common mythology a little more than DG's Mythos Mythology. (DG tries to fit some common mythologies, like "The Greys" into existing Mythos myths, for instance, while D*M's greys are a little more traditional ... partly because the Fraal race from Alternity was based directly off of modern Grey mythology).

D*M also seems to work modularly ... I've done D*M mini-campaigns without any "Magic" whatsoever, focused on weird-sci or alien conspiracy. I've done D*M mini-campaigns based around dark magic and evil cults, with the agents having no magic of their own. I've even done D*M with some magic-using agents before.

All of them worked within the same broad mythology, without stepping on eachother's toes. They're not mutually exclusive.

I think the D*M book, being mostly FLUFF and SETTING, is a really good buy for anybody wanting to do a conspiracy or occult or supernatural d20M game without the "D&D Modern" air about it. A few of the OOP core books can be found in online shops and the like, but here's a great secret for everybody ...

You can get over 283 pages of Dark*Matter goodness for less than FIVE BUCKS, by purchasing the Dark*Matter campaign setting as a PDF. At RPGNow, it's always on sale. I own a digital copy and a physical copy.

The only things that aren't directly usable from the D*M book are the creature stats, the NPC stat-blocks (about 1 stat-block provided per organization detailed), and the magic system. Maybe 1/10th the total book, really. But have heart!

Almost all of the creatures in the D*M book appeared in The Menace Manual, as do a few of the organizations, (along with alot of useful NPC stat-blocks).

For the magic system, I'd like to humbly suggest a very new product, available for sale starting NOW ...

SFX Skills: Diabolism, the first in a series of self-contained, highly thematic magic "packages" utilizing a "Skills'n'Feats" approach to FX.

I'll say that SFX Skills were inspired by the highly-suggested "Psychic's Handbook" from GreenRonin, which is another great D*M d20 product, and the tight thematic direction was inspired by the magic of D*M itself.

Unfortunately, for what we could get in a single hardback for Alternity, we have to buy several secondary products for in d20M. Luckily, alot of this is available in PDFs for very cheap, or SRD format for very free.

--fje

 

[wingsandsword]

I'll agree that Dark*Matter would have made an excellent addition to the Core Rules, as well as a way to have magic/FX without it being "D&D Modern". Given that WotC recycled Star Frontiers and Star*Drive in d20 Future, I'm reallly surprised they never brought back D*M (aside from that one Polyhedron article).

From what I understand (I think Monte Cook posted it a while back), Dark*Matter was originally an in-house Delta Green campaign, and they decided to turn it into a campaign setting for Alternity when it was produced, so they had to remove the Cthuhlu Mythos elements and replaced it with setting elements from Alternity (since Dark*Matter was the modern day prehistory of the far-future Star*Drive setting).

The only long-term d20 Modern game I ran was Dark*Matter. It works really well in d20 Modern. When I ran it, I had to convert everything myself since d20M was pretty new at the time, but with the Menace Manual to convert just about all the creatures (except notably the Ekkimmu, the vampires of the setting), the only thing you really need to translate is the magic/psionics. When I ran it, I used a system of variant spell/power lists to simulate the various types of magic/psionics in D*M, since it was quicker and easier than coming up with a skills & feats magic system.

I can understand that some people would want a D&D/Buffyesque setting like Urban Arcana or Shadow Chasers in d20 Modern, so for d20M 2e, I'd make the three default campaign models/settings:
Urban Arcana (high magic, D&Desque, fold Shadow Chasers into this one)
Dark*Matter (aliens, conspiracies, low-powered magic)
(Some non-FX setting, like a superspies/black ops setting).

 

[King of Old School]

And I'm sure I want a complete differerent Werewolf game apart from the Vampire, but White Wolf aren't going to make that happen.

Uhhh, actually yeah they do. Vampire is one game, Werewolf is another, different game. You can buy one without buying the other, and I suspect that many many people do just that.

So, why is it okay for White Wolf, Palladium, Hero Games, Steve Jackson Games to do it but not WotC?

To do what? Create multiple games with the same system? No one's arguing against that -- quite the opposite, actually. You're not arguing against a point anyone has actually made, so right now you're just talking to yourself.

I mean, TSR tried making completely different games with completely different rulesets while White Wolf were making Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage powered by one Storyteller System, and for their trouble they had to sell their company.

It's funny how a sentence can be grammatically correct and still make absolutely no sense. It's not quite a non-sequitur, but it approaches that level of illogic.

First, you're still arguing against a point no one has made. Second, WW has published non-Storyteller games before and publishes them still. Third, the notion that selling different systems was the cause of TSR's downfall has no basis in fact (or logic).

What I'm saying is, why take a huge gamble finding a new set of fanbase when you already got a large pool there? Is there something special about being in the smaller pool?

You mean, other than the fact that X + Y > X, even if X is much larger than Y?

By your logic, Wizards should never sell any non-D&D game, Modern or otherwise.

KoOS

 

[Ranger REG]

Uhhh, actually yeah they do. Vampire is one game, Werewolf is another, different game. You can buy one without buying the other, and I suspect that many many people do just that.

True, but there is that sweet bonus that they are compatible with another, at least to port rules mechanics and stats, with little or no tweaking.

 

[The Shaman]

I can understand that some people would want a D&D/Buffyesque setting like Urban Arcana or Shadow Chasers in d20 Modern, so for d20M 2e, I'd make the three default campaign models/settings:
Urban Arcana (high magic, D&Desque, fold Shadow Chasers into this one)
Dark*Matter (aliens, conspiracies, low-powered magic)
(Some non-FX setting, like a superspies/black ops setting).

Aside from the part about a second edition, I agree!

But I'd rather see the current edition errata included, and a couple of big hardback campaign settings for Dark*Matter and "d20 Black Ops" added to the product line in 2007.

Modern seems like such an underexploited market among gamers.

 

[Ranger REG]

Modern seems like such an underexploited market among gamers.

Well, I thought there were loads of publishers ready and willing to support d20 Modern. But then they started dropping like flies, and by then you find out who the true supporters are (The Game Mechanics, Green Ronin, and RPG Objects to name a few).

I think it's much easier to write for medieval fantasy genre than it is for modern genre, unless you're lucky like AEG's Spyrcraft line.

 

[King of Old School]

True, but there is that sweet bonus that they are compatible with another, at least to port rules mechanics and stats, with little or no tweaking.

The old versions required quite a bit of tweaking to port rules mechanics and stats. That's one of the key differences between the old and new versions, in fact.

Serious question: have you ever actually played any of the WoD games?

KoOS

 

[The Shaman]

Well, I thought there were loads of publishers ready and willing to support d20 Modern. But then they started dropping like flies, and by then you find out who the true supporters are (The Game Mechanics, Green Ronin, and RPG Objects to name a few).

But wasn't this true of the market in general? Publishers releasing product for Dungeons and Dragons went through the same drop in sales and consequently there was a culling of the herd across the tiny industry.

I don't see this as specific to d20 Modern - I also think that Modern is still looking for its breakthrough product from WotC. As good as the third-party publishers are, they don't have the same marketing presence as Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast. When WotC decides to really back Modern, everyone will benefit down the line.

I think it's much easier to write for medieval fantasy genre than it is for modern genre, unless you're lucky like AEG's Spyrcraft line.

First, I don't think AEG was lucky - looking at the books they produced, I think they had some very good writers and did a great job capturing the feel of the genre.

Second, I disagree that it's easier to write for medieval games. Consider how much "generic setting material" is available on the Modern world: even the Forgotten Realms can't touch the depth and breadth of real-world history.

Here's where I see the challenge for writing for Modern games: when you say "dungeons and dragons," everyone has a relatively common frame of reference, even if the details vary considerably. When you say "modern," it's all about the details, wherein the subgenres (espionage, military, criminal investigation, monster hunting, &c.) tend to define the game for many players. That's why I believe the breakthrough setting will be something like Dark*Matter that brings together a number of these subgenres in a way that offers a little something for everyone, but taps into a different audience than the one looking for "D&D with guns."

 

[The_Universe]

As others have mentioned, I'd probably:

Change nonlethal damage to something more akin to D&D
Replace the Massive Damage Threshold with Star Wars-like Wound and Vitality Points
Alter autofire to be at least somewhat dependent on the attack roll
Present a campaign setting with the book, but NOT Urban Arcana
Incorporate D20 Future/Past/Apocalypse/Cyber material, as apropriate, into the core game.
Present optional rules for expanding the uses of action points
Present more example foes, of a wider range of levels (not just 1, 5, and 10) so the DM/Gm doesn't have to do as much work

 

[Dark Psion]

Meh. Either them mini-campaign model options stay in (serve as campaign examples, excuses, or ideas to use FX) or all of them drop out of the rulebook.

After all, not much of Greyhawk are in the Player's Handbook, only as needed (e.g., deities and their domains for clerics).

BTW, is it true that only the vocal minority here criticized and/or questioned the existence of Urban Arcana -- much like I question the upcoming d20 Superheroes -- while the majority of customers bought the books?

My ideal D20 Modern support?


GURPS D20


The GURPS 3rd edition books have been some of the most helpfull in creating D20 Modern games (RPG Objects Blood & ____ books coming in a close second).